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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Digital Cinema Forum   » Roger Ebert Points Famous Digit Down for Digital Cinema (Page 2)

 
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Author Topic: Roger Ebert Points Famous Digit Down for Digital Cinema
Dave Williams
Wet nipple scene

Posts: 1836
From: Salt Lake City, UT, USA
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 03-11-2002 02:31 PM      Profile for Dave Williams   Author's Homepage   Email Dave Williams   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The BIG major players will not be able to control content even if they pay for the equipment. I second the reason stated that the operators will not stand for it. BUT...

The main reason at least here in the states.. is that it would be a violation of many federal statutes, not limited to rico, and also including the decades old agreement probiting studios and distributors from controlling what can play. If the studios want to go digital, they will have to accept that independants will get a piece of the playing time, and at the operators discretion..

dave

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 03-11-2002 02:52 PM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
OK, Chambers has the following:

Celluloid [registered trade mark], sel-u-loid, n (with cap in US) a thermoplastic, made from nitrocellulose, camphor and alcohol which is elastic, very strong and often transparent or translucent (often shortened to cel or cell); a sheet of this material; cinematographic film generally; the world of film and cinema.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 03-11-2002 03:03 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Actually if all the money that has been wasted on ecinema was invested into the existing cinemas the quality would be far higher than it is now

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 03-11-2002 05:57 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Regal and Carmike Cinemas may be out of Chapter 11, but they are not at all in the clear. They still have the bankruptcy court scrutinizing all of their purchasing decisions right down to the penny. My friend Jack over at the Carmike 8 has to go through a lot of hassle to get any purchases approved, even items like fixing a blown subwoofer driver or dying platter motor. DLP is certainly not in Carmike's plans at this time.

Anschutz may talk like they are going to drive UA, Regal and Edwards into leading the industry on converting to DLP, but I think all of their talk is just that: talk. And if they actually go through with it, the expense of those systems and their rapid depreciation rate of obsolescence will bring ruin upon those theater circuits.

Finally, it is fundamentally just plain stupid for any exhibitor to embrace a "digital projection" standard that is no better at all than a 1080i HDTV broadcast. That's very very shaky, especially when the DLP systems are costing as much as 100 times more than a HDTV I can pick up at Sears for $2,000.

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David Baum
Film Handler

Posts: 90
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Aug 2000


 - posted 03-11-2002 06:31 PM      Profile for David Baum     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
interesting.

yet, JVC is said to introduce in 2002 4000x2000 DILA projectors..... fill factor is 95%+ ( pixels less visible than DLP). when I see a tweaked home theater DILA can reach 1300:1 REAL contrast ratio...

Also the new PANASONIC 9600 3DLP is stunning too.

One guy who is sad is Lucas : the qty of digital projection theaters in the US is much lower than thought...... his EP II will have to be transfered on film..... will it look good, since it's digitally shot ?........

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Aaron Haney
Master Film Handler

Posts: 265
From: Cupertino, CA, USA
Registered: Jan 2001


 - posted 03-12-2002 12:49 AM      Profile for Aaron Haney   Email Aaron Haney   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jeez, I wish I'd never brough up the "celluloid" thing now.

I still disagree about d-cinema benefitting indies. The ones who pay to install it are the ones who get to decide how it goes. And if that ends up being the studios and distributors, they will see to it that they end up with more control, not less. Exhibitors can complain all they want, but unless they are the ones who are actually laying down the money, they will have no say.

I also wouldn't put too much faith in the federal government to prevent anti-trust violations. There is no way any politician will risk angering the media giants these days. They will willingly look the other way if studios and distributors start grabbing more control over theatrical exhibition.

I hope I'm wrong, but I just can't imagine for a second that these big businesses will simply sit back and allow independents to gain a foothold.


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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 03-12-2002 11:18 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Actually they may just decide to provide the projector as part of the film rental as such it can only be used for that film/s and that would get them around any antitrust laws

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 03-12-2002 03:19 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here's the Kodak Digital Cinema System news from ShoWest:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/corp/pressReleases/pr20020304-01.shtml
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/corp/pressReleases/pr20020304-02.shtml
http://www.kodak.com/go/dcinema
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/digital/system.shtml

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 03-12-2002 08:20 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
JVC might claim a "1300:1" contrast ratio with their DILA projector, but what are those numbers really going to mean in terms of real projection on a large screen. The digital projection people can rattle off all the numbers they want. The images still do not look any better (or even equal) to a good 35mm presentation.

Also anyone selling DLP should be very careful about scoffing at home systems. The same DLP chips being put in cinema digital projectors are being used in flat panel monitors and even computer projection systems. I guarantee you that JVC will be directing any digital projection hardware they develop to the home and computer market as well. They would not be able to amortize the development cost realisitically at all if they had to stick exclusively with commercial cinemas. And that is the marketing rub against digital projection. Commercial theaters will have NO exclusivity on that level of technology. Disappointingly, just about every digital projection system put through serious development either uses the 1080i HDTV format (processed down to 24p) as a source or it goes through an even lower quality drop in sharpess (the 1280 X 1024 standard of TI's DLP).

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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 03-12-2002 08:46 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Bobby, I could not have said it better myself. I've been making the same point for years now. Theatres do not represent the largest market for chips and systems. HD resolution gear capable of creating a wall sized image at home will become affordable in just a few years if not already.

Theatres have essentially 4 things to sell: Biggest picture, highest resolution, the shared viewing experience, and first run. I'm leaving sound off the list because the best home systems can probably equal or exceed all but the very best theatre systems.

Locking into an E-cinema standard that is no better (and possibly worse) than one can obtain at home is throwing away an important selling point.

When people can see the same picture on their home theatre setups and have it be identical to the theatre picture (and the the big screen advantage is partly made up by simply sitting closer--% of one's field of view etc.) then even more will choose to do so. Day & date pay-per-view experiments bombed in the past but theatre owners won't be laughing when there is a large enough universe of HD home theatres to feed. A monopoly on first run? Don't count on it. First run follow whatever business model brings the largest and fastest return

So what would that leave us? The communal viewing experience? Many of us treasure that but a huge percentage equate it with inconvenience, sticky floors, overpriced concessions and will bail at first opportunity. That only leaves teenagers who need to get out of the house.

This is not an argument against digital projection. It's an argument in favor of an Ultra Definition system for E-cinema. Something akin to 70mm projection. Theatre owners are entirely right to sit back and do nothing for the time being. Let the experiments continue but it would be a mistake to pour big bucks into the systems that are currently out there.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 03-12-2002 09:32 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
One has to wonder if Ebert has interest in Maxivision 48 or something. Gee, he's plugging a format that has absolutely no possibility at all of making it up the stairs to any booth. Lets face it. I have a better chance of getting a ride in the Space Shuttle than this format does ever getting launched! I'm sure its a fairly impressive format but something like this has no chance and never has in the past. Why waste steam trying again? He should be pushing existing technology that already exists like standard 70mm, or 70mm at 30fps. For many locations there is absolutely none, or minimal cost to run it. I have to really wonder where he is at these days, he seems to be drifting out to no where land if you ask me.
Mark

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 03-12-2002 09:34 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well rooted in the quest for quality

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Dave Williams
Wet nipple scene

Posts: 1836
From: Salt Lake City, UT, USA
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 03-13-2002 02:52 AM      Profile for Dave Williams   Author's Homepage   Email Dave Williams   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As to the antitrust issue Gordon, you may be right, but I still believe that it would be an antitrust violation in that it takes away from the operator the right to decide what gets shown. This would only work if the owner of the equipment allows other shows to be run, with a per ticket rental charge. Otherwise you end up with a very limited library of what can be viewed.

The rules would prohibit any studio from doing so, but not distributors, and as we have so little of them, I do not see ANY operator agreeing to lock themselves out of other pictures.

I do not believe that this will even become an issue anyway. By the time the quality becomes true and correct, the systems will be so far down in price that every operator will be able to afford them.

I also think that theater days are not limited. Home theaters do provide a wonderful viewing experience, and that gives me pause. The way for operators to stay viable is to utilize and exploit the communal experience, wether it be short performances or shows in place of previews, comedians, or contests and giveaways. You will not get that kind of fun sitting in front of a very sterile and potentially cancer causing lazer system

Dave

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Rob Oakley
Film Handler

Posts: 7
From: Endicott, NY, USA
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 03-13-2002 04:43 AM      Profile for Rob Oakley   Email Rob Oakley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This may sound oversimplified - but everybody thought that vinyl records would be a thing of the past by 2002 - while they're not on store shelves everywhere - they can still be purchased - brand new. Vacuum tubes are still being manufactured and used in amplifiers - I'm musican (bassist) and I can still get tubes for my Ampeg SVT.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 03-13-2002 05:24 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Analog versus digital comparisions are good when done intelligently.

I don't have much of any problem with digital audio recording these days since bit rates and sample rates are so high in professional studios. They exceed what the best analog recording technology can do. But when it comes to actually playing rock music, I gladly defer to my trusty analog electric guitars and vacuum tube driven stack. It just sounds better. Transistors and DSP chips still can't quite create the same kind of natural sound a tube amp will provide.

35mm and 70mm film are analog technologies that still work great. And they are better than any form of digital right now.

The problem with the word "digital" is that too many morons out there equate "digital" with being "perfect". They do not realize there are good and bad forms of digital. They do not realize that certain digital formats are far inferior to certain analog counterparts. This digital=perfect crap has to stop already. I think that marketing phenomenon is allowing the digital projection sales people and fanboys to be lazy and not forcing them to develop an actual superior product.

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