Film-Tech Cinema Systems
Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE


  
my profile | my password | search | faq & rules | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Digital Cinema Forum   » 11 new digital Ocean's (Page 2)

 
This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3 
 
Author Topic: 11 new digital Ocean's
Aaron Haney
Master Film Handler

Posts: 265
From: Cupertino, CA, USA
Registered: Jan 2001


 - posted 12-10-2001 10:27 AM      Profile for Aaron Haney   Email Aaron Haney   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well, now that's interesting, especially the note about Technicolor's new facility. I'm surprised they are making an investment of that kind. Then again, the press release states that it is a multi-purpose facility, so perhaps when film release printing dies off, they will still use it for other things.

I wonder if this will result in an increase in the general quality of North American release prints?

 |  IP: Logged

Ted Costas
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 119
From: Hollywood, CA, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 12-10-2001 02:16 PM      Profile for Ted Costas   Email Ted Costas   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Can anyone say "dual inventory?"

As Digital Cinema expands, and it is going slower than anyone has predicted, the 35mm inventory may decrease, but it will never go away. I'll be "food for worms" long before the last 35mm print is made.

Yours, Ted

Ted Costas
Senior Manager
THX Digital Services

 |  IP: Logged

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 12-10-2001 03:18 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
One trend is that "digital masters" or "digital intermediate" will be used to manipulate and enhance the image quality in more movies. This digital master can then easily be used to generate both film and digital copies for distribution to theatres:
http://www.cinesite.com/la/digital/background.html
http://www.cinesite.com/lo/digital/projects.html

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

 |  IP: Logged

Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 12-10-2001 08:40 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"Digital Masters" and "Digital Intermediates" might become a little more common, but for such items to be an acceptable inbetween step or even origination process, the resolution specs must improve. Certainly the 1280 X 1024 standard of current DLP systems is unacceptable, and I don't believe 1920 X 1080 is good enough either.

Some proponets of digital projection might argue about the supposed sharpness of the image, but that is all relative. I mean, look at a 15 inch computer screen displaying a basic 640 X 480 desktop. You can argue that picture is pretty darned sharp, but it doesn't hold squat for actual image detail. That's why DLP has to improve by a few leaps before I think the image quality standards will be good enough to replace 35mm film projectors.

The same image quality standards have to extend over to film photography as well. A good 35mm motion picture camera and good film stock is going to do a better job of capturing image detail than a glorified HDTV 1080 camera. Perhaps when digital video technology matures to a level perhaps double the 1080 standard, then arguments for digital origination might make more sense.

Overall, the thing I cannot get past is the issues of cost and complexity with DLP. A DLP setup costs a lot more than any standard 35mm booth rack system and it surely seems a more complicated to operate. I think the image quality with DLP has to get dramatically better, projection systems much less costly and those systems much more simple to operate before they can be seen as worthwhile replacements for 35mm projectors. Right now, I see all the DLP showcases as nothing more than a commercialized experiment.

 |  IP: Logged

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 12-11-2001 01:26 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Kodak is doing significant on-going research in evaluating image quality of digital capture and digital cinema systems. Recent work by Dr. Roger Morton has been presented at several SMPTE technical conferences. For example, "Assessing the Quality of Motion Picture Cinema Systems", Christopher L. DuMont, Roger A. Morton, and Kenneth J. Repich, presented at the SMPTE Technical Conference in Pasadena CA last year:
http://www.smpte.org/members_only/library/download.cfm?file=morton.pdf

Dr. Morton's work shows that 35mm film supports resolution of at least 4096 lines horizontal. Scanning and recording technology for this high resolution is becoming more available and cost-effective:
http://www.cinesite.com/CineonTech/resoultions/ResChart.html
http://www.arri.com/entry/products.htm

For example, Cinematographer Steven Poster ASC photographed the movie "Stuart Little 2" on 35mm KODAK VISION Expression 500T Film 5284, which was then scanned at 4K resolution for the effects, and then recorded back to film at 4K.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


 |  IP: Logged

Aaron Haney
Master Film Handler

Posts: 265
From: Cupertino, CA, USA
Registered: Jan 2001


 - posted 12-11-2001 09:50 PM      Profile for Aaron Haney   Email Aaron Haney   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It's great that the film production industry is starting to move towards 4K rather than 2K resolution, but there is more to good picture quality than just that.

I've become more and more concerned lately about contrast range. It's something that you miss if you're used to seeing it and it suddenly goes away. Having a big contrast range really makes a picture come alive, but unfortunately, many video projection systems like DLP don't have much in that area. And proponents of digital cinema tend to gloss over that problem. They just talk endlessly about how steady the image is. Hey, television is steady too, but I'm not in favor of replacing film with it!

 |  IP: Logged

William Bunch
Film Handler

Posts: 87
From: Misawa, Japan
Registered: Nov 2001


 - posted 12-12-2001 02:10 AM      Profile for William Bunch   Author's Homepage   Email William Bunch   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This has something to do with Ocean's 11 so maybe its OK to post here.
Nothing digital about us but we manage to keep the troops entertained.

Our little AAFES (Army & Air Force) theaters all around the world are no match for the glitter of the megaplexes back stateside but we do manage to attract some big celebrities on opening night.

The entire cast of the movie "Ocean's 11" recently deployed to Incirlik Air Base for the world premier of their latest movie.

Jerry Weintraub, producer of the film headed an all star cast, which included George Clooney, Matt Damon, Andy Garcia, Brad Pitt and Julia Roberts. Our theater staff rolled out the red carpet, literally, for the entourage to arrive with all the fanfare of a Hollywood premier. The crew and ushers were outfitted in Las Vegas casino regalia....just to add more flair to the excitement.

Even European Motion Picture Technicians got envolved, helping by fine tuning the projection and sound system. Technician Alain Orgnon did a superb job making the system perform at peak capacity.

The theater posted six performances, with each show having a maximum participation of 244. The stars spoke to the audience for the first two events before having to be whisked away to London, England. An additional three performances were added to meet the community's needs and maintain the excitement.

Kudos to the stars who took the time to stop and see our forward deployed troops at the 39th Wing and Operation Northern Watch.
http://www.af.mil/news/n20011210_1764.shtml http://www.etonline.com/celebrity/a7959.htm

I have never personally visited this site but can assume they are running 1950 vintage Simplex XL changeovers with a Dolby CP55. Probably still using RCA 9030 soundhead too.

Bill BuncH
Misawa, Japan
Army, Air Force Exchange Service (AAFES)

 |  IP: Logged

Paul Konen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 981
From: Frisco, TX. (North of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 12-12-2001 09:52 AM      Profile for Paul Konen   Email Paul Konen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have said this before and I will say it again.

D-Cinema is not about getting rid of film. I think we all know this. It is partly about lower distribution costs, constant presentation quality and other items that the "non-caring" projectionists do to film.

You also have to look at DLP costs with this in mind. The components involved in the manufacture are being custom made. Custom circuit boards, heads, all the stuff. Once a production run is made, these costs will come down. Take a look at any new invention. These costs are high until production can happen. I don't see how the DLP is more complex. The playback units tie into your existing automation system.

Another thing to think about since we are talking about Technology Adaptation.

How long did it take the industry to accept new sound formats and were the "same" complaints being waged then? How long did it take the theatre chains to add in digital sound and did they complain when a new technology was introduced?

(I may not have these in the right order and for that I apologize)

Dolby --> Dolby SR --> DTS --> Dolby Digital --> THX --> SDDS

Did the proponents of sound in film say that I'm not going to accept this digital stuff, my analog sound is great. Yes, analog sound can be great and is still in use today (when the digital track fails) and has not been replaced totally. It can't be because of the reliability of digital readers. Same with D-Cinema. It will not replace film.

There are people on this forum that I know will prefer to see film over D-Cinema. They have a keen eye and a great film presentation adds to their fulfilment of watching a movie. This should never go away. However, for Movie Companies, distributors, and all others involved, this technology will become more accepted.

One last item. What are we as comsumers going to do if they replace DVD technology with something else in say 20 years? Just let it happen and throw away our DVD players or force manufactures to keep this technology alive. I would suspect that DVD players will still be made just like turntables are still made today.

Paul.

 |  IP: Logged

Charles Everett
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1470
From: New Jersey
Registered: May 2001


 - posted 12-12-2001 12:35 PM      Profile for Charles Everett   Email Charles Everett   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Update to my original post: AMC Empire and Ziegfeld are running Ocean's 11 in DLP. Edgewater Multiplex is running Ocean's 11 in a Technicolor unit.

Paul: IIRC the sequence on sound runs

Dolby > Dolby SR > THX > Dolby Digital > DTS > SDDS

How can I tell? General Cinema opened Bridgewater Commons around 1988 with THX in the largest hall. That theater installed Dolby Digital for The Crying Game and DTS for Jurassic Park.


 |  IP: Logged

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 12-12-2001 01:27 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Charles gave the sequence of recent sound developments as:

"Dolby > Dolby SR > THX > Dolby Digital > DTS > SDDS"

I would make it:

Kodak 16mm Prototype Stereo Demo (Ron Uhlig) > Dolby > Dolby SR > THX > John Allen Fantasia demo > Kodak CDS >Dolby Digital > DTS > SDDS

Kodak's Ron Uhlig demonstrated a prototype 16mm stereo optical soundtrack that used Dolby noise reduction in October 1972 (published SMPTE Journal April 1973), showing the feasibility of using stereo variable area analog tracks with efficient noise reduction.

John F. Allen's demo showed the promise of digital sound in theatres. February, 1985:
"HPS-4000® and the Century Plaza Theatre make history once again
with the first ever public presentations of a film with a digital stereo soundtrack. The film used for this historic occasion is Walt Disney’s FANTASIA, coincidentally, the first film ever presented in stereo. In May, 1985, Digital film sound makes its east coast premiere in Washington D.C.Again, the film is FANTASIA, presented in HPS-4000® and digital sound":
http://www.hps4000.com/pages/articles_page_.html

Kodak worked with Optical Radiation Corporation to develop Cinema Digital Sound (CDS), the first sound-on-film optical digital soundtrack, introduced in 1990. Although not commercially successful, it led to the development of digital sound by Dolby, DTS and Sony:
http://members.aol.com/cds3570/


------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


 |  IP: Logged

Mark Lensenmayer
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1605
From: Upper Arlington, OH
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 12-12-2001 02:10 PM      Profile for Mark Lensenmayer   Email Mark Lensenmayer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Has anyone seen a list of digital sites for Oceans 11?


 |  IP: Logged

Paul Mayer
Oh get out of it Melvin, before it pulls you under!

Posts: 3836
From: Albuquerque, NM
Registered: Feb 2000


 - posted 12-12-2001 04:21 PM      Profile for Paul Mayer   Author's Homepage   Email Paul Mayer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Neither the Ocean's Eleven nor the TI DLP sites have been updated with any play locations yet. The Los Angeles Times Sunday Calendar section lists the following SoCal DLP locations:

Century City Lowes Cineplex Century Plaza (4 screens)
Santa Monica AMC Santa Monica 7 (2 screens)
Burbank AMC Media Center North 6 (1 screen)
Irvine Edwards 21 Megaplex (1 screen)

No DLP of any kind anywhere near where I am at the moment.

Cheers!

Paul
On the road somewhere in northern New Mexico


 |  IP: Logged

Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 12-12-2001 06:18 PM      Profile for Mike Blakesley   Author's Homepage   Email Mike Blakesley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Something I've always wondered about...why did Kodak and ORC go to market with CDS when the soundtrack location was the same as the analog? Surely they must have known that such a thing would have a rough time being accepted. It seems like the marketing dept. should have said, "Well it's great, but let's figure out a way to keep the analog soundtrack as a backup before we take this to market."

Too bad they didn't put the data somewhere else and leave the analog track alone...if they had, we'd probably all be running the same digital system today.

 |  IP: Logged

Aaron Sisemore
Flaming Ribs beat Reeses Peanut Butter Cups any day!

Posts: 3061
From: Rockwall TX USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 12-12-2001 07:31 PM      Profile for Aaron Sisemore   Email Aaron Sisemore   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
>>Kodak 16mm Prototype Stereo Demo (Ron Uhlig) > Dolby > Dolby SR > THX > John Allen Fantasia demo > Kodak CDS >Dolby Digital > DTS > SDDS<<

Actually THX belongs inbetween Dolby A and Dolby SR, as THX debuted in 1983 with 'Return Of The Jedi' and Dolby SR debuted in 1987 with 'Innerspace'.

-Aaron

 |  IP: Logged

John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 12-12-2001 08:09 PM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think the CDS people needed a large area for the soundtrack.. only the optical analog area was big enough (with the avaible technology at the time.)

Rarely do engineers say "What if my product fails?" They try to make not fail in the first place. Also, the enginners probably thought once theaters had digital, who would want analog?

 |  IP: Logged



All times are Central (GMT -6:00)
This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3 
 
   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic    next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.1.2

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.

© 1999-2020 Film-Tech Cinema Systems, LLC. All rights reserved.