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Author Topic: 11 new digital Ocean's
Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 12-13-2001 04:58 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
And one issue related to both digital sound and pictures is what happens when it does 'fail'. With any kind of analogue recording, physical damage to the carrier or a minor equipment fault will degrade the signal, but you'll still see and/or hear something. However unpleasant the experience is, you can still watch a badly scratched print or listen to a misgraded variable density track.

With digital, you either get everything or nothing. OK, error correction, checksums and so on will protect against lost data up to a certain line in the sand, but beyond that line, nothing - silence, or, in the case of DLP, a blank screen. Presumably it was this thinking which lead to all the digital sound systems using the pre-existing SVA track as a backup.

What will happen, I wonder, when a multiplex full of digital video projectors gets a virus in its server or suffers a head crash? Rather a lot of refunds, I suspect...

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 12-13-2001 08:42 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
AFAIK, the CDS track was printed in the analog soundtrack area because the edges and perf area were deemed too subject to abrasion and wear during projection. The track itself, and the error correction were very reliable, especially since the track area was not subject to much wear. But hardware problems (overheating) in the early units doomed the system to failure when there was no analog backup.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Dave Macaulay
Film God

Posts: 2321
From: Toronto, Canada
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 12-13-2001 09:58 PM      Profile for Dave Macaulay   Email Dave Macaulay   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
CDS... Did early sound houses keep the piano player on standby in case the new-fangled sound failed?
CDS used the sound track area for the sound track... doesn't that make sense? It included 5.1 sound, a MIDI track for special effects, and a SMPTE time code for... all sorts of things. It was a very well designed system and had a chance to become a new standard coexisting with or even supplanting SVA.
Its biggest drawback was the dual inventory problem, the lack of fallback analog can be seen as honest at least - how many places advertise DIGITAL! but give no notice if it isn't?
The unexpected failure of almost all CDS units when it first opened with Dick Tracy was pretty bad publicity. Basically this was the first time the units were run with the access doors closed - they overheated and silence was golden. CDS techs handled it pretty well, the problem was diagnosed and customers told to leave the doors open until a fix arrived and not many shows were actually lost.

Dolby is really who killed CDS by announcing Dolby Digital just after CDS premiered, and about a year and a half before they actually delivered a product. Dolby stressed the analog fallback to capitalize on the unfortunate overheating incident while the story was hot even though they had no digital system to sell. I still think it's strange to advertise your product by saying you expect it to fail. Good marketing from Dolby but the death notice for CDS.

Both Dolby Digital and SDDS have limited print life capability - the data area is abraded in normal projection. DTS too, but the DTS data density is so low it will survive print damage much worse than SRD and SDDS can handle. CDS - with the data on the protected sound track area - could still work after enough passes that all other digital formats' data is obliterated.
It didn't NEED analog fallback like the others all do.

Oh, and Betamax is still better than VHS.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 12-14-2001 01:07 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The most interesting was a system proposed by the National Film Board of Canada that superimpossed the digital ontop of the analogue track and had a beam splitter in the rear of a century soundhead with a laser and a CCD type camera There was a article in a SMPTE journal about it but I can't remeber the issue

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 12-14-2001 02:15 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dave Macaulay said: "CDS used the sound track area for the sound track... doesn't that make sense? It included 5.1 sound, a MIDI track for special effects, and a SMPTE time code for... all sorts of things. It was a very well designed system and had a chance to become a new standard coexisting with or even supplanting SVA.
Its biggest drawback was the dual inventory problem, the lack of fallback analog can be seen as honest at least."

Thanks Dave. CDS was a really great system, with one fatal flaw. But it really did usher in the era of digital sound by proving it could be done. Kudos to the development teams at Kodak and ORC. But being first out of the gate doesn't assure success, a lesson that still applies with Digital Cinema.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Aaron Haney
Master Film Handler

Posts: 265
From: Cupertino, CA, USA
Registered: Jan 2001


 - posted 12-16-2001 03:47 PM      Profile for Aaron Haney   Email Aaron Haney   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Perhaps I should make myself clearer.

I actually want digital to replace film, but only after it achieves a certain quality level. Unfortunately, there are some people who want that replacement to happen now, before the quality is there. I am not accusing anyone on this board of being that way, but yes, such people do exist. Phil Barlow of Disney is one. Philip Anschutz (the guy who is buying out Regal and other exhibitors) is another. These people are in positions of sufficient power and control that they just might succeed in converting everything to digital before it's ready. That bothers me.

Paul, since you mentioned digital sound, I'll use that as an analogy:

Imagine if, years ago, someone had come along and said they wanted to replace analog sound with 8-bit / 11Khz digital sound. Why, everyone would rightly have told them they were crazy! Well, that's how I feel about digital video. It's a good idea in theory, but today's implementation isn't good enough.

I don't really have a "keen eye", nor is my vision really all that great. But I do try to pay attention. And I don't understand how anyone can look at a side-by-side comparison of current digital vs. film and not see the same thing I see. It's currently not good enough, and I wish they would keep it out of theaters until it is good enough, lest its current state becomes a de-facto standard and we end up stuck with it.


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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 12-16-2001 04:02 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
"Both Dolby Digital and SDDS have limited print life capability - the data area is abraded in normal projection."

Dave, that is absolutely not the case if FilmGuard is used on the film. Digital track life will not degrade one bit.

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 12-17-2001 05:22 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dave: I don't know whether early sound houses kept the pianist on standby or not, but unlike with digital, 'failure' didn't usually mean sound or no sound. It meant a technical problem with the soundtrack which usually wasn't serious enough to stop the show. With digital systems of any sort, IMHO, they tend either to work perfectly or not at all. It's quite interesting to look at trade publications from the early 30s to see which systems and equipment became established and which didn't, usually because of higher operating costs and unreliability.

And John P's point about innovators often failing to produce the version of a product or idea which eventually becomes an industry standard applies equally to early sound. In fact, if you look at the introduction of the three major analogue systems - Warners/Vitaphone (disc), Fox/Movietone (variable density) and RCA/Photophone (variable area), RCA came last and eventually superceded the other two. Discs had disappeared by the mid 30s and VD by the early 60s.

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Trevor Bailey
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 113
From: Woonsocket, RI
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 12-18-2001 04:32 PM      Profile for Trevor Bailey   Author's Homepage   Email Trevor Bailey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Back on the topic of Ocean's 11 digital projection...I finally had a chance to catch the beginning of that show today at the NA Showcase Randolph, MA and I was very disappointed. I only watched the trailers, but there was VERY noticable pixalization on all titles. The previous digital demo I saw only showed moving images and no titles (purposefully, I'm sure). This was my first chance to see a "digital show" and I walked out after the trailers. I appreciate that everyone will have differing opinions on this, but I can't image many who saw what I did today would say it was acceptable. And I don't think anyone would say it was "as good as film".


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