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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Digital Cinema Forum   » Why use DLP? (Page 2)

 
This topic comprises 4 pages: 1  2  3  4 
 
Author Topic: Why use DLP?
Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 05-27-2002 11:30 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here's my take on the archival issue, approaching it from a computer graphic artists' view:

Not only are there many storage formats to use (all with their advantages and disadvantages --and reliability problems on long term storage and data recovery), but then you have consider HOW the data will be stored.

For instance, there's lots of stock image banks like Corbis, PhotoDisc and others. They all have their opinions on what is an appropriate resolution for "high res" archival quality. There are differences in opinion on what image res is good enough. Some think 2K is just fine while others like myself point out a 35mm 4-perf frame can hold over 12 million pixels of real image detail. How far do you go in devoting data space per frame for archival?

On top of that, you have other issues in how the film image is digitally aquired. Some archival places prefer to make a well balanced high res drum scan and then do nothing to the image. Others may want to "correct" the color or adjust sharpness, etc.

Anyway, the whole business of digitally archiving films opens up many cans worms, to use an old cliché. Many people, including myself, believe the film stock itself is the real piece of archival media.

Decades from now the original data tapes of "Star Wars: AOTC" may be lost. To counter, some analog 70mm film prints of other movies like "2001" may be in good condition and able to be used for some super high res home video format of that age. I think Hollywood should be shooting its movies on VistaVision and 70mm film formats if they truly want to future proof their product for much more highly advanced formats of home digital entertainment.

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Nick Catalano
Film Handler

Posts: 30
From: Whitefish Bay, WI, USA
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 05-28-2002 12:28 AM      Profile for Nick Catalano   Email Nick Catalano   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In all honesty when I start making films I would love to do it all 70mm, but if there is a digital alternative that provides better quality, then I will go with that. Film just costs too much.

AOTC costs $18,000 in tapes, it would have cost something like $3.2 million (or was it 6.2) if they shot it in film.

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James R. Hammonds, Jr
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 931
From: Houston, TX, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 05-28-2002 12:34 AM      Profile for James R. Hammonds, Jr   Email James R. Hammonds, Jr   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You get what you pay for.

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Michael Barry
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 584
From: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 05-28-2002 12:46 AM      Profile for Michael Barry   Email Michael Barry   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
...the cost of film stock is the cheapest aspect in any Hollywood production.

Consider that AOTC cost $US120M to make WITHOUT film. So what if they saved $US2M?

Kenneth Branaugh's 'Hamlet' was filmed and released in 70MM and the budget was $US18M!!!!!!!!

...and which do you suppose might look better?

BTW, welcome to Film-Tech...

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John Hazelton
Film Handler

Posts: 42
From: Oakland, CA, USA
Registered: Jun 2001


 - posted 05-28-2002 02:52 PM      Profile for John Hazelton   Author's Homepage   Email John Hazelton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Nick asked why DLP instead of D-ILA. I don't know if you've been able to do an A/B with both systems. At the moment, to my eyes, the DLP has a much better looking picture. Better contrast ratio, truer color rendition, blacker blacks (or should I say blacker greys?).

There are newer D-ILA based projectors out there, but I haven't been able to compare them side-by-side. I'd love to check the Kodak system, but for some reason you have to go to Rochester to see it. TI is also rumored to have an HD resolution chip in the works.

Personally, I don't care which technology gets used, as long as it looks great.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 05-28-2002 07:13 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A 6000:1 contrast ratio (or whatever term the marketing people invent) does nothing for creating real image detail. A DLP image, like it or not is never more than 1280 x 1024 pixels --if even that when you consider the cropping of a 2.35:1 frame.

I'm sorry, but I chuckle at folks blowing $7,000 to $20,000 on flat screen TVs thinking they've got the best possible thing when they only deliver at best a little over 50% of a 1080i HDTV image. That's DLP for you. Impressive contrast ratio, whatever that means. Native pixels however --the low number sucks much ass.

As to an earlier comment about "a better digital alternative to film" --there is none. At least not from a standpoint of image quality. 5-perf 65mm/70mm is the highest reference standard of any theatrical exhibition process (not including special venue, which is mostly even larger formats of 70mm). Anything digital sucks compared to 70mm. When a videotape process and digital projection system is invented which can show at least 4,000 X 9,000 native pixels of real data, then we can talk about there being a real digital alternative to 5/70. Until then 70mm is the highest quality thing going even though it is icky analog.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 05-29-2002 06:55 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A practical test for "contrast ratio" is to try to cast a shadow on the screen when the projector is projecting "black". The more complex the optical system, the more likely there will be contrast-reducing stray light, and a clearly defined shadow able to be cast in the areas of the image that are supposed to be truly black. The "blackness of space" should not be dark gray!

A release print made with KODAK VISION Premier Color Print Film 2393 from a well exposed negative can have black densities well above 4.0, or over a 10,000:1 brightness range on the print itself:
http://www.kodak.com/US/plugins/acrobat/en/motion/products/curves/2393Char.pdf

Standard SMPTE 196M specifies "Screen luminance due to stray light shall be less than 0.16% (600:1 theater screen contrast ratio) for review rooms and primary theaters. For all other theaters, the luminance due to stray light shall be less than 0.25% (400:1) theatre screen contrast ratio)." So stray light from the projection optics and port glass, as well as the ambient light in the theatre, tend to reduce the contrast ratio considerably from that available on the film itself:
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/newsletters/reel/december99/pytlak.shtml

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 09-23-2002 02:37 AM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have not heard hardly a "peep" out of the DLP technology since EP-2 died. (Good riddance, George)

Did the engineers decide it was a POS, or are they licking their wounds?

Just curious....

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 09-23-2002 03:22 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I remember reading an article a couple of years ago about the NASA tape library which is a good case in point re: digital storage media. is at NASA where alot of the Apollo, Gemini, and Mercury digital archive is no longer playable due to either tapes going bad on them or lack of the older equipment to be able to play them back. Much satelite data is in the same state. Most of these are telemetry type archives but never the less they have deteriorated to a point that they are no longer useful. NASA kept these in archival storage through the years but to no avail. Early mag tape is just too touchy plus the obsolescence of equipment is also a big problem. This same thing could also happen to large Hollywood productions done digitally. Even if stored on optical digital disk no one really knows the true lifespan of these either. I don't think there is a permanent storage system yet devised for digital data...... Also in 75 years time will the drives and equipment still be around to play them back?
Mark


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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 09-23-2002 05:45 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hasn't anyone in the industry learned anything from history? Basically that we rarely get reliable information about the longevity of storage media until you actually get there; i.e., as much as you think you can predict to a scientific certainty what a physical entity will do 50 years down the road (or even 10), you don't REALLY know its reactions until you've had it stored in a closet that length of time. Who knew what nitrate and later acetate would do 20 years out (VS), or what emulsion dyes would do 10 years out (fade to magenta)? And remember the claims that Laserdiscs would remain pristine FOREVER...."forever" being about 5 years before laser-rot set it obliterating the visual and aural information? Seems the physical world isn't as stable as we would have hoped. And the possibility, or perhaps even the probability, that digital storage may face the same long-term problems should be obvious to anyone who takes a moment to ponder the real world.

Frank

PS -- Ever try to play a 2 inch quad video tape recorded only as short a time ago as the 60s? Good luck.


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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 09-23-2002 09:14 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Although film is certainly not perfect, it does have an established "track record", with countless examples that have "stood the test of time". Procedures for proper processing, storage, and restoration are well-established and understood, if not always followed.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Paul Konen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 981
From: Frisco, TX. (North of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 09-23-2002 01:16 PM      Profile for Paul Konen   Email Paul Konen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Frank, your comment about the Laser-disk is interesting. Do you think the same will happen with CD/DVD's or is the medium a different material?

Could you expand on what "Laser-rot" is?

Thanks
Paul

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Aaron Sisemore
Flaming Ribs beat Reeses Peanut Butter Cups any day!

Posts: 3061
From: Rockwall TX USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 09-23-2002 01:26 PM      Profile for Aaron Sisemore   Email Aaron Sisemore   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
>>Could you expand on what "Laser-rot" is?<<

It is caused by corrosion of the aluminum data surface of the disc, usually making the disc unplayable. Here is a site with a good picture of a CD with Laser Rot: http://www.rdrop.com/~half/General/CDRot/CDRot.html

I have read reports of it affecting DVDs as well.

-Aaron


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David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 4021
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002


 - posted 09-23-2002 01:35 PM      Profile for David Stambaugh   Author's Homepage   Email David Stambaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
With regard to 12" LaserDiscs, I think the term "laser-rot" refers to a phenomenon where the layers of the disc are not properly sealed air-tight during manufacturing. Air or humidity seeps in and causes corrosion of the aluminum center layer that contains the laser "pits". At least that's what I read somewhere.

CDs and DVDs are less-susceptible to laser-rot due to their small size and surface area, reduced tendency to warp, and improved mfg. techniques. But they're not immune.

[oops - I got pulled away from the computer in the middle of writing my post, came back and finished, then discovered Aaron had already answered the question]



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Evans A Criswell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1579
From: Huntsville, AL, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 09-23-2002 02:59 PM      Profile for Evans A Criswell   Author's Homepage   Email Evans A Criswell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 

About the laser rot concerns: I have 60 to 70 12" Laserdiscs and haven't come across any that show signs of "rotting" that people have reported, and have over 2000 CDs and have not come across any that have deteriorated or won't play. Have I just been lucky?

Evans

------------------
Evans A Criswell
Huntsville-Decatur Movie Theatre Information Site

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