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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Digital Cinema Forum   » Digital cinema: Majority of people not willing to pay more (Page 2)

 
This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3 
 
Author Topic: Digital cinema: Majority of people not willing to pay more
Jesse Skeen
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1517
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: Aug 2000


 - posted 04-16-2001 11:51 PM      Profile for Jesse Skeen   Email Jesse Skeen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
With ticket prices nearing the $10 level; matinees even going above $5 now, if I were paying to get in not only would I expect the presentation to be PERFECT (which it's already capable of being at most places) but I also want a BIG screen! Most multiplexes have screens that vary in size, the smallest being not much larger than a big screen TV system- at least not that much larger to lure those who have them out of the house. That's why I found the discussion of reissuing the "Indiana Jones" films pointless- if they're going to be shown on screens of that size (even if the picture quality on those screens is otherwise perfect), what's the point? I want a place I can walk in and go "Damn, that's a BIG screen!" If I can get that, they could be showing "Battlefield Earth" on it for all I care and I'd still feel like I was getting my money's worth

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John Pytlak
Film God

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From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 04-17-2001 06:51 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Bill said: "Price wise film projection equipment is still pretty damned expensive considering the bulk of the R&D was done nearly fifty years ago. I guess the price is based on the fact that they're only going to sell it to you once so they've got to get you NOW."

Don't be so critical of the equipment manufacturers. There are only about 110,000 theatre screens in the world. Since film projection equipment is so durable, I would be surprised if the worldwide market for new projection equipment exceeded 15,000 units per year, divided among competing manufacturers. So the economies of scale just aren't there to bring prices down with mass production methods. If GM, Ford, Chrysler, Honda, or Toyota sold only a few thousand cars per year, the prices would be much higher too.

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John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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Aaron Haney
Master Film Handler

Posts: 265
From: Cupertino, CA, USA
Registered: Jan 2001


 - posted 04-17-2001 06:52 AM      Profile for Aaron Haney   Email Aaron Haney   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If digital cinema is to succeed, it absolutely must be better than what people can get at home, whether or not ticket prices are raised.

Just think: I can go to an electronics store right now, today, and buy an HDTV set with a resolution of 1920x1080. Technicolor (so far the only company that has unveiled a serious plan for large-scale digital cinema installation) is talking about putting 1280x1024 in theaters. You do the math.

Right now there are two factors that prevent competition from HDTV from being too big of a problem:


  • HDTV is too expensive for the average home viewer
  • There is a limited availability of full-resolution HDTV source material (just a few broadcast and cable channels)

Both of those a very much temporary. In a few years, an HDTV home video format (one in which pre-recorded feature films are available) will probably be available, and then it will really take off. Economy of scale will bring the prices down, so it will become affordable to more and more people. What are theaters going to do then?

The companies that are pushing for digital -- particularly Technicolor -- seem to be rushing blindly into it because they see a way to save a few bucks. However, those savings will only come if they can keep all other factors, especially ticket sales, the same. Once people get the ability to have better quality at home than in theaters, they will simply stay home, and not come back! Bye-bye, savings!

I realize that's been said before, but it bears repeating. Just think about how many home theater freaks there are who already (incorrecly) believe their setups are superior to any theater. Their ranks will swell tremendously once HDTV gets going full swing. And for once, they'll actually be right -- they really will be getting better quality at home!

If companies like Technicolor had any long-term vision at all, they would probably wake up and realize doing things like giving away 1000 very expensive projectors which are pretty much already obsolete is not a smart investment. Of course, this is corporate America we're talking about, so it's pretty much a given that they will be short-sighted and not figure that out.


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Brad Miller
Administrator

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From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 04-17-2001 06:58 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
The one thing I have not seen anyone mention about the Technicolor digital give-away fiasco is just how long is the theater required to keep using it? Technicolor is making their money at 12.5 cents a ticket, right? For that, they have to provide the equipment, installation costs and maintenance on it. Let's say that someone orders them for their multiplex and then realizes they had a better presentation with film and no longer desires to use it. Can they just call them up and say "take this piece of junk out of here", or do they HAVE to keep it for a prearranged period of time? If so, what happens if the studios cease programming in that format?

If it's the first senario, let's everyone order the projectors, run them for one day and then make Technicolor pull them out!


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Jeff Stricker
Master Film Handler

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From: Calumet, Mi USA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 04-17-2001 09:03 AM      Profile for Jeff Stricker   Email Jeff Stricker   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm a bit off topic, but some of this discussion has me thinking of the FCC trying to mandate digital broadcast TV. Within 5 or 6 years the commercial TV stations will have to surrender their analog channels and broadcast only digital. Folks with analog TV's will have to BUY a "converter" box to watch over-the-air signals. I keep thinking of all the lower income folks out there that just want to watch a ballgame or the news and don't give a *&%# about how the picture gets to their living room. Does this make sense? Or our we just enamored with the technology at the expense of all the proletariat out there that couln't care a bit?

Color TV, as we currently know it, was a success because it was "compatible" with the B&W system that was running in the early 50's. One of my old electronics profs. was a part of the original RCA color development team. Folks then didn't have to throw away a TV (or buy some "adaper") to still be able to watch programs when color was being broadcast. Remember how NBC started their programs: "this program is being brought to you in compatible color, pioneered and developed by RCA". (Guess I'm getting old to remember that!)

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Scott Norwood
Film God

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From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-17-2001 09:54 AM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jeff -- good points.

Personally, I really don't think that analog TV broadcasts will go away anytime soon, regardless of what the FCC is saying now. There are major problems with reception in fringe areas, where people might currently be able to get a watchable picture, but who would get no reception at all with digital. The cost issue is a big one, along with the fact that consumers don't really seem to care much about digital TV. There's not much of an advantage over NTSC for standard-definition pictures, and the costs and disadvantages are substantial.

I don't see HDTV (which is a superset of the digital TV requirement) as being a big winner, either, and certainly not in the next decade or so. Cable companies won't carry it because they don't want to sacrifice the channel capacity. There isn't much HDTV programming (other than movies of the week and a few prime-time shows and major sports events), primarily because the production costs are significantly higher and yet the ad rates are not. And what about the last 50 years' worth of programming? Sure, the stuff shot on film can be re-transferred to HDTV, but why would anyone bother with the expense? Are any of these shows really going to be all that much better in high-def?

It seems to me that all indications are that the public really doesn't want to pay extra for this, especially in a time when a pretty decent 27" NTSC set can be purchased for well under $500, with the digital- and HDTV sets costing many times that amount. As a result, there isn't likely to be much of an economy of scale for the manufacturers, which will delay any price reductions over the long term. Also, TV sets tend to last a long time; 10 to 15 years is not uncommon for a good color set. People are _not_ going to suddenly trash their old sets and buy new ones just because they're digital.

I know this sounds like an anti-HDTV post, and it sort of is. Personally, I am totally in favor of anything that improves image quality (on TV, in movie theatres, etc.), but the cost (financial and otherwise) is just way too high right now to justify the benefits, and I don't see the cost dropping anytime soon.

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John Walsh
Film God

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From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
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 - posted 04-17-2001 10:11 AM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My own 0.02...

I don't think new projectors are too expensive to buy. It's the parts to keep them going that are too much.

Also, I don't think it's possible to run out of ideas for a film. It's tougher to make good films, but there will always be ideas. Remember when everyone thought the industry was dead in 1976... then Star Wars came out and re-engerized it.

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Darryl Spicer
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From: Lexington, KY, USA
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 - posted 04-17-2001 10:14 AM      Profile for Darryl Spicer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
from what I understand the local tv stations have the option to put in digital broadcasting capabilities. I think that both analog and digital broadcasting will work side by side

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Greg Mueller
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From: Port Gamble, WA
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 - posted 04-17-2001 11:33 AM      Profile for Greg Mueller   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Mueller   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I thought it was the tv stations wanting to get more info (HD)into the same bandwidth and going digital to do it. So they would have to give up the analog signals to put the digital signals there. Does this sound right?

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Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut

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Evans A Criswell
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From: Huntsville, AL, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 04-17-2001 10:42 PM      Profile for Evans A Criswell   Author's Homepage   Email Evans A Criswell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Scott,

About digital TVs costing a lot and there not being enough programming:

I'll bet that many people purchasing digital TVs right now are ones that want to watch DVDs in progressive scan 480p on a 1.78:1 screen, rather than to watch actual HDTV material. If I bought one right now, better DVD viewing quality would be the reason, and not HDTV.


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Evans A Criswell
Huntsville-Decatur Movie Theatre Info Site


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Jonathan Haglund
Film Handler

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From: Irvine, CA, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 04-18-2001 03:25 AM      Profile for Jonathan Haglund   Author's Homepage   Email Jonathan Haglund   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
From what I hear about the terms of technicolors deal with the DLP's is you must use technicolor distribution exclusively and I think there is a term contract to keep the DLP's in operation as well as the exclusive use. The person I talked to didnt say much more though, just that there was so much fine print invovled it wasn't worth it.

If you can't have a free lunch, what makes you think a free Digital Projector is any more likely?

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Jonathan Haglund
Edwards Theatre Circuit, Inc
Park Place 10

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Joe Schmidt
Expert Film Handler

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From: Billings, Montana, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 04-18-2001 06:32 AM      Profile for Joe Schmidt   Email Joe Schmidt   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here's some fuel for the nitrate fire of the tv debate.

It's my belief that in 5 years from now, most of the local tv stations will not have converted to digital as the FCC has mandated. Instead, they will be off the air, dark, gone, no more.

Why? Do the math. Every year, the broadcast networks lose more viewers to the hundreds of competing satellite channels. I saw an article in Time magazine a while back which suggested they were down nearly to only 25% of the market THEN. So if you have 4 local stations in a market with CBS, ABC, NBC and FOX, that 25% is divvied up between the 4 of them. One of these days the local merchant advertisers are going to wake up, and say: HEY!! WE'RE PAYING ALL THIS MONEY AND NOBODY'S WATCHING OUR COMMERCIALS! When this hits it is going to snowball very fast and local tv darkness will follow.

Eventually the 4 networks will become just another 4 pay channels, if, that is, all 4 survive somehow. I've heard the disney interests are losing a lot of money in abc and aren't happy. Within next 5 years switches may be pulled somewhere.

Only stations in the major markets are likely to survive. There are about 140 being carried on DirecTV, within channels 860-999.

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Jeff Stricker
Master Film Handler

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From: Calumet, Mi USA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 04-18-2001 07:32 AM      Profile for Jeff Stricker   Email Jeff Stricker   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ah yes, local advertiser supported TV is going to have a tuff time in the future. Local news may be the only thing carrying them now.

As I understand it, a local channel is assigned another channel for digital broadcasting. ie. Channel 8 may be assigned, say, channel 18 for their digital signal. Then when everything goes digital, they are supposed to surrender the analog channel 8 allocation. The FCC, in their infinite wisdom, will then reassign the surrendered frequencies for other purposes. (Like we really need more cel phones and pagers!!)

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Evans A Criswell
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From: Huntsville, AL, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 04-18-2001 09:21 AM      Profile for Evans A Criswell   Author's Homepage   Email Evans A Criswell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Joe, your observation about TV may be very accurate. Look at what has happened to radio during the past few years. Many former local stations have been bought out by bigger companies and we have more and more "network radio" stations. There is a Nashville station that sometimes plays the same songs as a Huntsville station, with the same commercials. I've been driving from Nashville to Huntsville and could switch between a Huntsville and Nashville station playing exactly the same thing.

I think the "local flavor" of broadcast TV stations will diminish more as time goes on. The way things are now, even the national cable network stations have local commercials. They usually stick out like a sore thumb because of the audio and video quality.

Broadcast TV is being hurt by people that don't want to use antennas. I lived in the country for 15 years and we had to use an antenna with a rotator and amplifier to get anything, and what we got was often snowy. We could get approximately 30 different stations, but only a couple had good picture quality. Many people in the country got satellite dishes for the cable networks and they end up not watching the broadcast channels because they can't get a good picture with an antenna and the local stations are not available on the dishes. I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see broadcast TV go completely away and be replaced totally by cable and dish systems. Antennas are just too problematic. Even if you live in the city where the TV station is, it doesn't guarantee that you'll be able to get a good picture free of ghosts and interference.

------------------
Evans A Criswell
Huntsville-Decatur Movie Theatre Info Site


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Scott Norwood
Film God

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From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-18-2001 09:30 AM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, it is really sad to see what is happening to broadcast radio. Not only are formats and playlists fairly standardized even in widely differing markets, but much of the programming is now broadcast directly off the same satellite signals that are used by stations across the country. Commercial insertion is usually automated, and cart machines or their digital equivalents are cued from the satellite signals to play the local spots.

There was an article in the Washington Post either yesterday or the day before about the homoginization (sp?) of radio in general. They talked mostly about WGAY (yes, they actually used those call letters), which was recently taken off the air because the "golden oldies" format didn't get enough advertising. While that isn't exactly my favorite format, I agree with the general sentiment that it is sad to see so many radiio stations that are owned by so few entities. I don't really have a solution for this.

I don't know about the future of local TV. I'm not as pessimistic as some of the comments made here, but I don't see it being the major force that it once was.

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