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Author Topic: Showplace Cinemas, Evansville, IN. Going Digital Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 11-28-2007 04:19 PM                     Mark you miss that when it comes to projectors for cinema...there is not economy of scale to drive the costs down. The exhibitors also have no continual desire for the latest and greatest. It shows a complete lack of understanding of the dynamics of the projection technology to think that there is going to be this R&D to go beyond very far. 2K was funded by the desire/need for consumers...there is no plans (except some experimental stuff in Japan) to go beyond 2K for the home. In truth, I think they way to really high-def is like Mark said, not with arc lamps...it would be more likely with laser or skip projection all together and have the screen be an emense flat panel display. It has the best chance of being able to use other industry technology for a better cost of scale. Steve  |  IP: Logged Mike Blakesley Film God Posts: 12767 From: Forsyth, Montana Registered: Jun 99 posted 11-28-2007 06:10 PM                        quote: Steve Guttag skip projection all together and have the screen be an emense flat panel display. I can see where that will happen but I hope it doesn't. Some of the magic of the movies is that beam of light going through the air.  |  IP: Logged Louis Bornwasser Film God Posts: 4441 From: prospect ky usa Registered: Mar 2005 posted 11-28-2007 06:23 PM                        Mein Gott! Steve and I agree exactly! Yes, and (because of obsolescence) today's digital projectors (along with their 10-15 year time payments) will be gone & forgotten in 4-6 years. I think I'll stick with film for awhile longer! (NextGenTV). Louis  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 11-28-2007 06:27 PM                     Oddly enough...I'm not as concerned about the media or the light flickering through the air...I don't think that was ever what movies were about...that was just the means available to bring it about. To me it is all about the story and the production...the ability to emerse oneself into the movie...even if it is only a documentary (I love them too). I hate settling for less and newer is NOT always better and with DCinema right now...it should be nothing more than Beta testing...2K is not sufficient for replacing film whereas film is a superior format. There are applications where I think DCinema quality is sufficient though not cost efficient. I feel that 2007-2008 is not the time to make the switch for cost or quality reasons. Steve  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 11-28-2007 07:42 PM                     quote: Mike Blakesley Some of the magic of the movies is that beam of light going through the air. The only thing important is the light on the parton's faces!!! quote: Steve Guttag There are applications where I think DCinema quality is sufficient though not cost efficient. I feel that 2007-2008 is not the time to make the switch for cost or quality reasons. I agree but 2007/8 is really just the beginning point to start from. I don't consider the Carmike part of this at all relevant except to show that as a big experiment it can be done and it can work. As far as savings... I think if you were the one ordering the thousands of prints and answering to your distribution department head you would probably feel different. In the end the only benefactor to this whole thing is distribution! Realistic lifespans for equipment is going to be solely based on the manufacturer of the gear and how long they want to support it... not chip or electronics obsolescence. Should T.I. give in on the DLP chip... which is very unlikely just because of its fast rise in popularity and the fact that both Sony and JVC are rival compeditors in this field that division would more than likely be sold off to some small semiconductor vendor as has happened before. In cases like this a decent profit margin can be made for a smaller parts vendor than a large one with enormous overhead. Overall I don't worry so much about obsolescance... the D-Cinema gear thats out there today with the exception of the 1.3K projectors has actually withstood obsolescence many times over just through easy board upgrades or simple software upgrades in most cases and it has either been at zero cost or at great cost. Those who own BARCO projectors that are not DCI Compliant will spend over 5K just to make them DCI Compliant! The DSP engines used in this equipment are very much software reliant to do more or less what ever you need them to do... so in alot of cases a simple software upgrade is all anything might need. Mark  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 11-28-2007 07:56 PM                     Actually, the service record of the Barco DP50s that I still care for has been rather good. After a couple of color board failures early in their life (covered by Warranty)...we have had one folding mirror go bad and Barco supported it. The DCine Communicator works with them still and all of the TI updates apply to them as well as the newer 2K stuff...they were made with TI boards, afterall. I think I stopped upgrading them on the TI software at 11.1 or perhaps they are at 10.x since they were no longer going to receive any more 1.3K DCinema stuff...what was the point? You and are definately looking at this from differing points of view, my friend. Steve  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 11-29-2007 11:36 PM                     Getting back to the subject of having your computer residing on your phone and being at Christie University this week someone brought up using an I-Phone to do the alignment on the new ZX projector... which utilizes a simple web based browser to log onto the projector... Its certainly a doable thing and certainly now worth getting an I-Phone... Those that haven't seen the innards of the new ZX are in for a very pleasant surprise. Its now the most well planned and executed digital projector out there. Its all super easy to service and much more inexpensive to keep working right down to the reflector system.... which no longer costs 4K or more to replace.... less than half that in fact if ever needed which is less than most other comparable glass reflectors. Out of the box to image on the screen can be about 30 minutes... Some of the adjustments such as Bore Scope(or Scheimphlug adjustment) and convergence can be as time consumming as you want them to be depending on how well you want them set... so total setup time is dependent on how efficient one is at going through all the adjustments required. The real nice part is that all of the adjustments are really easy to get to. Christie is getting set to introduce a more efficient version of the large CP-2000 which will coast easily at 30K lumens and also a smaller projector based on the .98" DMD chips that will be capable of a 30 foot wide maximum screen. This new projector is far smaller and has the CBG written all over it. Mark  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 11-30-2007 07:10 AM                     Note, Barco's DP3000 is at 30,000 lumens already and has the DP2000 and DP1500 with the .98 chip...they are 20,000 and 15,000 lumens respectively. As for ease of service, oddly enough Kinoton might take that prize...it is quite roomy inside. NEC's latest projector, the NC1600C (replaces the NC1500C) is based on the .98 chip with a price drop to match. The Christie 2000ZX and the NEC NC800C both are the fastest out of the box to showtime projectors that are basically point and shoots. They are definately favored by rental houses. Steve  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 11-30-2007 08:06 AM                     I've seen both the Christie ZX and the NEC and worked with the Christie. The Christie wins hands down for ease of service. I think it might even beat out BARCO's new projector in that realm. Its almost like they took all the other manufacturers projectors problematic points and eliminated them completely. The upcomming small Christie is built similar to the ZX but is quite a bit smaller overall. ZX's are not just being favored in rental it appears to have been Regal's choice for screens under 46 feet in width as they are opening several brand new builds... one just an hour from Cyprus and all the projectors are ZX's. They are already approaching the 600th ZX shipped. RE: The original CP-2000 was rated at 20,000... the latest CP-2000's have many improvements to them optically. Also, The 30K lumens the CP-2000 is capable of is on a coast mode. Here in SLC the big Barcos several of which are operating on 70 foot wide screens struggle to do 14fl with a 6kw lamp and many still loose ignitors and positive DC connection plugs still occasionally burn up in spite of removing the star washers.I hope BARCO has taken care of this expensive to fix engineering goof up on the new machine!! The new prism coatings that Christie has patented has gained them about 18% more lumens alone over the other manufacturers prisms and the new coatings are on all the Christie manufactured prisms only!! Now if we could get Schneider and ISCO to get off their asses and get the prime lens market covered for D-Cinema we'd be seeing even more lumens because there'd be less glass in the light path and far better corner to corner sharpness out of all these projectors. The ZX has indeed dropped the daily operating AND maintanance costs to right about film level if you run with OSRAM short gaps. The CDXL's are still just too darn expensive. Mark  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 11-30-2007 10:08 PM                     Mark, actually Schneider DOES have a line of fixed focal length lenses...the problem is that when the imager changes from 1.2 to .98, more than the focal lengths need to change apparantly...it isn't like a film plane. The whole lens design has to chanage! That is one reason zooms (more accurately variable-focal length) are being used...it keeps the lens design down to a minimum. If the industry stabilizes, you will see more fixed focal length lenses. There is definately a shift now from 1.2 to .98 imagers as they look to be handling up to 40-foot wide screens. As to the Christie ZX....on those larger Regal screens, are they using the super-dooper CDXL30SP version of the 3K lamp? Also, have you seen the Kinoton projector? VERY roomy inside. Steve  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 12-01-2007 09:45 AM                     Well, the Schneiders are not really available as of Showeast and only a few focal lengths have actually seen the light of day... er DLP. Lens design is far more critical for DLP because it is a larger extremely flat surface you have to back focus to. Almost all of the lenses in use or in development involves multiple aspheric surfaces as well as special flourite glass which is extremely difficult to produce and grind. Konica/Minolta is seeing almost 100% of the lens sales for DLP right now and the center to corner variance I saw in their different focal length lenses while setting up borescope(or Scheimphlug adjustment)is not at all pleasing. There is also some drift as zoom is changed... a characteristic of all zoom lenses unfortunately. Luckily Christie has comissioned Konica/Minolta to build a magnifier that goes into the lens changer to allow one zoom setting to be used for constant height. When the 1.26 magnifier swings in it keeps scope constant height. The magnifier is EXTREMELY sharp and also utilizes aspheric elements. Its is also relatively inexpensive when compared to the cost of DLP anamorphics, including the lens changer less than half the cost of a single anamorphic. They also added in an offset adjustment on the screen setup to allow one to compensate for any offset the magnifier might introduce into the image. As for the Regal installs far as I know they are using the latest version of the CP-2000 (with the new optical coatings) for all the larger screens and the ZX on the screens under 45 feet. The CDXL30SD is meant mainly for use when single machine 3-D steps in. It takes the ZX machine to 20K lumens and actually has a 1500 hour life use. The CDXL30 life rating has been bumped up to 2500 hours and the CDXL20 up to 3500 hours as stated right in the ZX manual. This further lowers the daily cost to operate these DLP projectors. Should a tightwad exhibitor deside to go for very long hours on the CDXL20 or 30 mirror replacement is not outrageous at all and is in fact alot less expensive than many glass mirrors used in cinema lamphouses today. I have seen the Kinoton and its definately very roomy but roominess is to me the least important factor in a DLP projector... Compactness and servicability very definately are to me the most important. The ZX servicability has literally left everyone else in the dust. It dismantles completely in 20 minutes or less and re-assembles just as easily! All major pieces such as light engine, reflector, and so on are all located with dowel pins.... you can take it apart and re-asemble major pieces without having to do any major realignment. The choice of the Sanrex ignitor and switcher was a very smart move and Sanrex reliability has always been tops. The entire light engine is easly accessable with the aid of swing out panels for convergence and the ribbon leads to the formatters are easily swappable to aid in diagnosing light engine/EFIB problems. The double filtered airflow over the face of the DMD chips keeps them cleaner and also aids in cooling them better... it may indeed even allow higher light levels than other manufacturers DLP projectors. The web browser based setup allows almost any palm type computer, I-Phone, etc to do a complete setup of their projectors through a simple wireless network. The two Interrogator functions are excellent aids and go way beyond just the typical log files... they also gather and store data about the memory status in the light engine Formatters, EFIB, and processor boards. T.I. has seen some problems lately with some memory and running 3-D at the the higher switching rates!! Christie's experience in the DLP field is really beginning to shine and their overall support is also tops at least at this point in time. They have far more technical people with more knowledge and a far larger stock of parts than any of the other players, the best part is the quaity of the product is steadily improving and in many regards not in just one or two aspects. They have more room for quick production expansion if needed to produce more projectors at the Canadian facility. They run just two assembly lines at this point one CP-2000 and one ZX line and there are room for at least three more lines. A light engine repair facility is being set up in Cypruss, etc. I think their purchase of Electrohome was a wise move... other film companies like Strong, Neumade, Big Sky seem to just be groping at what to do when film projector sales cease... er they apparently thay have almost ceased at some of these companies. Geez, these other companies have indeed missed the bus leaving the train station! Mark  |  IP: Logged Louis Bornwasser Film God Posts: 4441 From: prospect ky usa Registered: Mar 2005 posted 12-01-2007 08:51 PM                        Shouldn't we wait for the next train, rather than the bus? Louis  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 12-02-2007 10:44 AM                     My point of view shows that the next train has already arrived at the station and has for the most part begun to pull away from the station. There is very definately a certain group of folks that were not there to meet the train! Mark  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 12-02-2007 07:55 PM                     Then again, the tracks may lead to a non-completed bridge to fall into.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 12-02-2007 08:15 PM                     Admittedly... all bridges are inspected including that one in Minnesota.... luckily the train wasn't on that bridge just underneath it. Its the switches and crossings you need to worry about!  |  IP: Logged

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