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Topic: The end of the reel -- Examining the digitalization of film

David Zylstra
Master Film Handler

Posts: 432
From: Novi, MI, USA
Registered: Mar 2007

posted 04-13-2008 01:48 PM

On 3D in the home, if you read here DLP 3D page it looks like 3D DLP TV uses shutter glasses that are controlled from a port on 3D enabled DLP TV - and it is full color; sounds like any other 120Hz TV could be compatible with the right king of player.

Though I would guess that Hannah Montana 3D DVD will be anaglyph, especially since each copy supposedly comes with glasses.

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Ron Curran
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 504
From: Springwood NSW Australia
Registered: Feb 2006

posted 04-13-2008 10:20 PM

Mark raised a valid point about the waste created by Xenons.

I wonder how long we can continue to justify 30-screen multis burning 3K lamps when about 30 hours a week they are illuminating empty houses. Add to this the aircon load and our forests have to work overtime.

LED screens or lasers might be forced on the industry by environmental considerations.

If it is to be lasers, can’t we have holograms?

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Martin McCaffery
Film God

Posts: 2481
From: Montgomery, AL
Registered: Jun 99

posted 04-14-2008 11:06 AM

quote: Ron Curran
If it is to be lasers, can’t we have holograms?

And a jet pack! [Wink]

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 04-15-2008 08:10 AM

Kreosene will be at least $42.00 a gallon by then Martin!

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Ron Funderburg
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 814
From: Chickasha, Oklahoma, USA
Registered: Nov 2007

posted 04-15-2008 12:48 PM

One jet liner cause far more damage than one theater. What bout the 1,000 of flights they make a day? Are environmentally concerns slowing air travel?

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Darryl Spicer
Film God

Posts: 3250
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Dec 2000

posted 04-15-2008 01:24 PM

what about everytime they launch the space shuttle.

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Ron Funderburg
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 814
From: Chickasha, Oklahoma, USA
Registered: Nov 2007

posted 04-15-2008 01:48 PM

The space program has always striven to have a positive impact on the environment. The bi-product of the main engines is water vapor or more exactly steam. The primary fuel of the two external solid rocket engines is aluminum I'm sure their is some negative impact from this but it must be negligible as people are within a mile of the shuttle when it takes off.

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 04-15-2008 02:48 PM

quote: Ron Funderburg
I'm sure their is some negative impact from this but it must be negligible as people are within a mile of the shuttle when it takes off.

Yah, and they were sure that the impact of the fallout from the A-Bomb testing on those soldiers who they placed a mile away from the test site would be negligible too. [Eek!]

The heavy-duty sunglasses that they gave them were very helpful.

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Michael Moore
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 188
From: Dover, DE / USA
Registered: Jun 2006

posted 05-18-2008 07:47 PM

People do not like change. I for one, really don't care about digital, however if it turns out to be the take over that people say it will be then so be it. We can't change what will happen. I mean I love film, and will take 35 mm over digital any day. I still think film will be around a lot longer then most predict. I think it will be well into the next 20 years common place. However After that I think it will fade slowly.

This is all just my opinion, I have nothing to back it up, but hey look at LP's (I love my LP's!) they are still around and some companies still make and support them... Look at Vacuum tubes, most Guitarist prefer them over component. For my upright Bass I use an old Altec tube PA driving an old 15" Altec woofer, people I know envy my setup.

Over the years there have been mainstays. LPs IMO are mainstays, and CD’s are mainstays, but look at 8-tracks, cassettes, VHS, BetaMAX, MD, DAT... (Well VHS, was on a roll for a while but DVD took over). Some of these listed are still used, but to a much lesser extent.

I think Digital will take over as the new medium or most used format, and 35 mm will be around as a mainstay for years and years, and maybe 70 mm will still be around just a little.

I don't think the LP is going away, why would 35 mm!

Michael Moore

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 05-19-2008 07:55 AM

quote:
I don't think the LP is going away, why would 35 mm!

The LP has gone away except for small numbers being made in certain places today. It is actually fairly easy to set up and operate an LP mastering center and a few presses. 35mm will do the same thing because it costs a ton of money to operate the labs to process it once required numbers of prints drops off the labs will cease pringint/processing operations, its dam expensive to run a lab of any decent size!. Once Digital reaches a certain saturation point very few film prints will be struck, mainly only for locations that can produce good return because the per print price will become astronomical. Stop and think Michael... some of the larger lab entities are already branching out into digital prints and distribution, etc. They see what is comming too. Another thing that may have an impact on 35mm is the price of oil.

Mark

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David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 4021
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 05-19-2008 09:22 AM

The comparison of vinyl records and 35mm film is a bit of a stretch. Records have always been a mass-market consumer good. There are enough collectors and vinyl junkies left to sustain it as a niche market, even with the price of new records at $15 and up (mostly up). Which, if you compare to CD, isn't really all that high.

What is the market for 35mm film? Theaters. It's not a consumer-driven good. There are (basically) no collectors of movies, since (ahem) 35mm prints are not for sale and freely available. The supply of old prints is very tightly controlled. No free market forces. When 35mm becomes a niche market, as it will, why would distributors spend $6000 or more to produce a print? Could a handful of theaters reject digital and hold out with film forever while paying substantially higher rental fees to cover the cost of prints? Doubtful, unless they're being operated by a deep-pockets film lover who is not in the business to make money.

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99

posted 05-19-2008 03:41 PM

Alternative viewpont: film will be around forever in some form. It is possible to buy standard 8mm, super-8mm, and 9.5mm camera film today, despite zero support from camera manufacturers for the last decade or so. Photography did not replace painting and I do not expect electronic imaging to replace film. It is possible to manufacture film, film cameras, and film projectors on a small scale with relatively simple technology. If Kodak and Fuji go away tomorrow, there will be someone making film stock in his basement somewhere. It may not be "mainstream," but it will exist.

Also consider that, for limited releases and reissues, a handful of prints even at $6k each is cheaper than the $100k (or thereabouts) cost of scanning an interpositive and producing a digital master. (Does anyone know if this cost has come down lately or is expected to do so in the future?)

As for the mainstream side of the industry, consider that only one major chain (Carmike) has made a serious commitment to [dlp]

at this point. AccessIT is in tough financial shape and probably won't turn out to be a viable business over the long term. DCIP has done nothing substantive to date (and it's led by the guy who ran Loews into the ground, which doesn't exactly inspire confidence in their success). The US economy is not yet in a recession, but the possibility seems likely. All indications are that the US screen count will go down in the next few years, possibly significantly, as gas prices rise and alternative forms of entertainment proliferate. All of these factors may combine to delay the widespread adoption of [dlp]

for several more years, at least.

I don't know the situation outside the US, but I suspect that the 35mm infrastructure will be even more difficult to replace. (Maybe someone else can comment here.)

I don't doubt that film will go away eventually as a mainstream exhibition format, but I don't see it happening in the 2-5 years that people keep predicting. I would tend to guess that we have at least another decade of film as a mainstream format and quite possibly longer.

Unfortunately, I would also expect that the quality of release prints will generally decline as [dlp]

quality improves, eventually negating any quality advantage that 35mm now has. [Frown]

Having said that, if 3D and/or "alternative content" really take off and prove to have long-term staying power (both unknowns), I could see a faster move to [dlp]

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David Zylstra
Master Film Handler

Posts: 432
From: Novi, MI, USA
Registered: Mar 2007

posted 05-19-2008 04:28 PM

I've heard a forcast that film distribution has 10-15 years left "mainstream".

I think actual release print quality may get better - i.e. lower volume, more expensive production **may** lead to increased quality since the labs won't be under a tight schedule to produce thousands of prints.

quote: Scott Norwood
Also consider that, for limited releases and reissues, a handful of prints even at $6k each is cheaper than the $100k (or thereabouts) cost of scanning an interpositive and producing a digital master. (Does anyone know if this cost has come down lately or is expected to do so in the future?)

I heard someone quote a number of $50K, but I'm not sure if that is jpeg2K packaging from a DI or jpeg2K from film.

Alternate content is not proving as viable as originally touted - a significant source is restricted (i.e. sporting events). I did hear that Landmark has done some live 3D Maverick games, but what will the attendance be like when every theatre in town is showing games at the same time? We should stick to what we know works - movies . . . . then value add other movie like content - i.e. digital could allow smaller niche film makers to exhibit their content on the big screen with minimal extra expense (all they need is a good source that outputs DVI or HD-SDI and they can plug directly into the projector)

quote: Scott Norwood
(and it's led by the guy who ran Loews into the ground, which doesn't exactly inspire confidence in their success).

Actually the merger with Cineplex Odeon brought about the Loews bankruptcy - this guy was also part of the team that brought Loews out of bankruptcy (and he wasn't President/CEO until after the assets were bought by Onex).

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 05-19-2008 07:06 PM

About 150K for scanning a 40 min. 15/70 at 4K rez. I know of someone having one done as I type this. Almost all films except perhaps low budget types are scanned anyway today. Its more or less automatically done because of digital prints

Mark

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Lyle Romer
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1400
From: Davie, FL, USA
Registered: May 2002

posted 05-20-2008 07:33 AM

quote: David Zylstra
Alternate content is not proving as viable as originally touted - a significant source is restricted (i.e. sporting events). I did hear that Landmark has done some live 3D Maverick games, but what will the attendance be like when every theatre in town is showing games at the same time?

I think everybody knew this would be the case and that the alternate content thing was just marketing BS from the people pushing digital cinema. It's great for a small incremental increase in customers on a tuesday night but it isn't going to do anything near what movies do as far as grosses go.

On the Mavericks games at Landmark, it helps to get rights when the same guy owns the team as the theatre chain.

The ONLY thing digital cinema delivers that can't be delivered by current 35mm projectors is 144 Hz, triple flash 3D. Of course the same polarizing technology (or color filter in dolby's case) can be applied to 35mm and a similar (or better) quality 3D can be produced.

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