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Author Topic: BluRay Audio Fromats and DMA-8 Pete Naples Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1565 From: Dunfermline, Scotland Registered: Feb 2001 posted 10-08-2008 06:59 PM                     Assuming you're CP650 is EX capable. ( I know CP650 means EX before any pedantry starts!) With a DMA8+ installed, select Format 87 6 Channel in + Surround EX on the CP650. It will decode the rear surround information from the Lt/Rt surrounds, in the time honoured manner. The only way to access Le & Re on the CP650 is via AES/EBU inputs, and you must have the crossover card installed. (CP650 XO IIRC) You cannot use the Le/Re channels from any other source, and IIRC there's no Eq on them either.  |  IP: Logged Brian Guckian Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 594 From: Dublin, Ireland Registered: Apr 2003 posted 10-10-2008 10:16 AM                     Hi Pete - what about 7.1 discrete? Wondering if that could that be accommodated via the AES/EBU input in future with accompanying bitstream decoding via a new card, etc.? The 650 block diagram is intriguing as it shows 2-channel and 6-channel signal paths as far as the I squared S to ESSI Convertor, then an 8-channel path out of there to the Slit-loss EQ and NR, the Matrix Decoder and the B-Chain EQ. Whereupon it splits...with 8-channels sent back to the Option Card and 6 channels forwarded to the 6-ch DAC and then on to the outputs. Ah...the mysteries of the signal processing world! [EDIT: Apologies as I hadn't read up on the Cat. 791 Digital Crossover card which I see supports full-range Le and Re - thanks for the pointer, Pete] [ 10-10-2008, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: Brian Guckian ]  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 10-10-2008 06:24 PM                     Le/Re do indeed have full (EQ) processing with the appropriate card. You can either use the Cat 778 (digital audio output as well as AES3 audio input) or the Cat 791 (crossover card) to pick up those outputs. Note, the Cat 794 and the Cat 790 DO have 8-channels of inputs...they are unclear on how to use all 8 outputs...perhaps discrete EX...I'd have to check. Steve [Edited to correct wrong card number] [ 10-11-2008, 07:21 AM: Message edited by: Steve Guttag ]  |  IP: Logged Carl Martin Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1424 From: Oakland, CA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 10-11-2008 05:55 AM                        quote: Mike Olpin We always run 35mm when a suitable print is available. But we run A LOT of old films, many of which are unavailable on 35. http://www.statetheatretc.org/?page=comingsoon the only video i see noted in the linked page is the opera salome, so i presume you found prints of all the listed films? btw, there are some inconsistencies in the ratings listed for wusa, the green berets, and hearts and minds. quote: Scott Jentsch Personally, I don't think it should matter whether you are showing movies on 35mm, DVD, or 8mm. You are showing movies in a community experience with the added value that you can provide over and above what people can experience at home. come again?  |  IP: Logged Pete Naples Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1565 From: Dunfermline, Scotland Registered: Feb 2001 posted 10-11-2008 06:55 AM                     Steve, interesting. That conflicts with what Dolby UK told me recently when I asked the same question.  |  IP: Logged Scott Jentsch Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1061 From: New Berlin, WI, USA Registered: Apr 2003 posted 10-14-2008 10:35 AM                        quote: Carl Martin come again? Where is the confusion? My point was that it doesn't matter so much what specific source was used to provide his presentation. People tend to get way to pre-occupied with internal bias about film vs. digital, and it distracts from the real end goal, which is to provide the audience with the best possible presentation with the resources available. If the best source available is DVD or Blu-ray, there's nothing wrong with showing that (as long as the licensing issues are covered, of course). If the resultant image on the screen is unacceptable, then the theater has a choice about whether to go on with the show or select a different feature instead. In my opinion, operating a movie theater is not about selling the movie, it's about selling the experience. The original poster was trying to deliver the best experience possible, and I was applauding him for that.  |  IP: Logged Carl Martin Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1424 From: Oakland, CA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 10-14-2008 02:09 PM                        of course the experience should be good. but job #1 is presentation of the film. if you run a quality restaurant and can only get frozen crabs, then crabcakes come off the menu. if you can't get the film on film (if it's supposed to be) than you have to acknowledge that that is an "unavailable resource" and work towards making it available (getting a print struck, finding a collector print, importing one) rather than giving the public exactly what they can get at home, which isn't true to the work. quote: Scott Jentsch If the resultant image on the screen is unacceptable, then the theater has a choice about whether to go on with the show or select a different feature instead. i guess if you're already playing the bait-and-switch game then that's a natural solution.  |  IP: Logged Scott Jentsch Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1061 From: New Berlin, WI, USA Registered: Apr 2003 posted 10-20-2008 03:51 PM                        At the risk of taking the dead horse out for another beating... Showing movies on film is the only advantage a theater can deliver to its audiences? Does it make more sense to show a film print of a classic movie where the colors are faded and the sound drops out, or to show that same movie in great condition using Blu-ray? Which approach serves the customer the best possible way? So long as the resulting picture and sound are acceptable to the exhibitor (this is a matter of personal and professional judgement), who cares what format it comes on? This obsession with film being the only true way to display movies needs to be overcome, or perhaps another line of work should be considered. Theaters are in show business. Put on a show for crying out loud! If all a theater is doing is spooling up a reel of film and hitting the start button, where's the "show" in that? They're not doing anything to add to the experience that people could get at home anyway.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 10-20-2008 07:22 PM                     Scott, The problem with your "its just a movie" approach is that it sets no standards. The professional medium of movies sets certain, engineering society defined, standards. While the end user may not be any more aware of those standards than they are of what goes into a UL listing for a product, they come to depend on those standards and presume that what they are seeing is the best that the industry has. If, for some reason, what they perceive is something closer to a home-grade product, then they may, rightfully, believe that the value of going to the theatre is little more than a group experience of what they already have at home. For 35mm film...while yes it can be scratched and faded...sound drop outs in analog are rare. At what point does one make the determination that the film version is too far gone? I know it has to be made at some point. However, the exhibitor should denote that what they are showing is not film or cinema grade (DCI) digital. I've now done several more Blu-Ray on the big screen viewings and they really don't stack up well to either film or professional digital screenings and should not, in any way, be passed off as such. To do so, believe it or not, cheapens the industry and actually hurts more than the offending theatre. Again, the perception is that what is seen in the theatre is no better than what is seen in the home. Even worse, what is acceptable in the home (in terms of compression contrast, color...etc) shows its ugliness when blown up to cinema size screens. Once one tip-toes down the path of showing home-grade media in a professional environment (without informing the audience), then one has truly crossed the lines of deceiving the public. You can justify it in any way you want...but what is the difference between that and a sub-run theatre just showing DVDs...just because a film print (or digital) is available...who cares? DVDs are easier and cheaper. Steve  |  IP: Logged Scott Jentsch Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1061 From: New Berlin, WI, USA Registered: Apr 2003 posted 10-27-2008 09:40 AM                        Steve, Thanks for helping me to clarify my point. The real emphasis should be placed on the theater to show a high quality presentation with the best possible picture and sound, first and foremost. If the best you have to work with is 8mm film, is showing the movie on 8mm more important than not showing it at all? How about VHS? Of course, that's stretching the example a wee bit, but it comes down to the theater deciding whether or not to show a movie based on its own standards, and not necessarily whether it's on film or not. Since you've actually shown Blu-ray-sourced movies in a theater, you have more practical experience than I, but I am surprised to hear that a properly calibrated system would have color issues on Blu-ray when compared to a properly calibrated system on Film. This sounds vaguely familiar to a thread a couple of months ago... Assuming that is the case, though (I have to take your word for it that you've done everything necessary to calibrate your system for showing Blu-ray discs), then it gets back to the quality of the presentation issue. I think it would be entirely appropriate for the theater manager to present to the audience and say that "we really wanted to show this movie, and the best copy we could find was on DVD. DVD wasn't intended to be shown this big, but I think the discussion after the movie will be interesting nonetheless, so I look forward to discussing it with you afterward!" There are other things that the theater can bring to the table when showing non-first-run movies. While it's important that the picture and sound be the best possible (that should be Job 1 for any theater), theaters need to look beyond the fact that they are threading film through sprockets as the differentiator between them and the home theater experience. For many people, waiting 3-4 months for a movie to come out on video is preferable to going to a movie theater because going to the theater doesn't offer them anything compelling. The exclusivity window is fading year by year, and theaters have more to offer than that. I'm just saying that theaters shouldn't get hung up on film being the be-all and end-all measure of professionalism. Any theater that is just pushing the start button and not paying attention to the other aspects of the show are missing a huge opportunity to serve their customers. Doing more takes work and it takes some money, too. I can see why some theaters don't want to do any more than the bare minimum, but no one should be surprised when they're not in business any longer either.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 10-27-2008 12:16 PM                     Scott, As I said previously, it is one thing to inform the audience that what they are seeing is the best available and it is on DVD...and passing a DVD or other consumer-based media off as a professional presentation. The patron should be able to make an informed decision on it. Otherwise, you run the risk of cheapening the theatrical experience in the name of "well, its better than nothing." Sometimes, nothing is truly better. Is film the be-all? Yes, at the moment. The more I look at the various mediums side-by-side or right after another...the more I distinquish video (including DCinema) as an inferior medium. Most recently...film versus digital 3D. While the film 3D has definite ghosting issues that the digial show did not...the digital 3D suffered from the lack of depth I've mentioned in other threads. In 3D, this manifests itself in what I can best describe is a South Park type animation (paper cut out style) but with 3D. As such, the objects while have a spacial representation (this is in front of that and separated by some amount of space), the depth of the object/character itself is unnaturally truncated. This was not the case in the film based 3D system I observed. As to Blu-Ray...it is amazing what is acceptable in very small images (60" or so) and how that really falls apart on much larger images 20-feet to 40-foot wide screens. It is substantially better than just DVD but it is a FAR cry from DCinema or even broadcast quality HD tape (D5, HDCAM-SR). In particular, the contrast is quite wanting and the colors too seems to really be lack-luster in comparison. For what its worth, I've now seen Blu-Rays on both Barco and Christie systems...freshly calibrated and the results were similar...better than DVD but not anything near professional HD quality. To be honest, I was quite surprised and a bit disappointed. Steve  |  IP: Logged Phil Ranucci Expert Film Handler Posts: 236 From: Carpinteria,CA, United States Registered: May 2006 posted 10-27-2008 07:54 PM                     How are you getting the Blu-Ray into the Barco? We have a DP-100 and were told that we cannot get into the DP-100 at 1080i because the projector isn't HDCP compliant, so all we can use is the standard DVD outputs.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 10-27-2008 08:57 PM                     First off, not all Blu-Ray titles (if any) have HDCP activation. Second...1080i is not necessarily the output rate...24p for 24p source material. The Barco I've seen was a DP2000, not DP100. The DP2000 (and 1500 and 1200 will take the HDMI with just a DVI/HDMI cable) However, I've done consumer based HD on the DP100 and DP50 via an ImageProHD...and before you fault these rather good scalers...The other forms of HD (broadcast grade)...looked notably better than Blu-Ray. Note, the DP1200, 1500, 2000 and I believe DP3000 can now be made HDCP compliant and hence Barco's ACS-2048 is HDCP compliant in/out to allow the 3rd generation projectors to be HDCP compliant. The Christie projector was the CP2000-ZX. It is HDCP compliant right out of the box. Note, if you look hard enough...there are HDCP strippers out there. Steve  |  IP: Logged Phil Ranucci Expert Film Handler Posts: 236 From: Carpinteria,CA, United States Registered: May 2006 posted 10-28-2008 02:23 AM                     We're using the ACS2048 via the Dual DVI inputs to show the Metropolitan Opera and it works very well. I just get asked about Blu-Ray because that's the latest and greatest format that's being pushed.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 10-28-2008 08:57 AM                     I find it amazing that Blue Ray looks as good as it does on a large theater screen... The data rate is no where near the JPEG 2000 rate for actual cinema stuff. Mark  |  IP: Logged

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