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Author Topic: BluRay Audio Fromats and DMA-8 Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 10-28-2008 10:00 AM                        Pop in Kill Bill Volume 2, go to the scene where she is being buried alive and you will be pounding your fists.  |  IP: Logged Mike Olpin Chop Chop! Posts: 1852 From: Dallas, TX Registered: Jan 2002 posted 10-29-2008 05:03 PM                     That scene in Kill Bill makes me squirm. All of our content runs through an ACS-2048, and I am very impressed at what that box can do. Also, I am not my theatres booker or owner. My job is to take the content given to me, be it on 35mm, DVD, BluRay, DCinema, cable broadcast, or CineMedia satellite event, and make sure that it looks and sounds as good as I can technically make it. Film will always be my first love, but the experience I've gained working with the wide variety of formats we run has also given me valuable knowledge and experience I didn't have before. Now then, the solution to my question: Ran the firmware updates, player seems more stable now, but it still cannot pass high bandwidth multi-channel streams out the optical output in a way that the DMA8Plus can see. The player does, as I mentioned earlier, have a DTS Re-Encode mode. I found a $200 box that decodes optical DTS into line level discrete analog outputs. I can route those into the 6-channel input on the DMA8Plus. Problem solved!  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 10-29-2008 06:58 PM                     Standard optical outputs don't have the bandwidth to carry bit streams of lossless Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD Master Audio or uncompressed Linear PCM. You have to use HDMI or decode the high resolution formats in the player and use analog outputs. I don't know if other players do this, but the Playstation 3 has this default behavior: If you choose to output audio via the standard optical output then the PS3 will automatically send the lossy core audio from Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD audio tracks. The PS3 will only send LPCM multichannel audio from decoded Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD tracks when HDMI is chosen for audio output.  |  IP: Logged Peter Castle Expert Film Handler Posts: 220 From: Wollongong University, NSW ,Australia Registered: Oct 2003 posted 10-31-2008 09:39 PM                     What's the issue with that scene in "Kill Bill Vol 2"? I've looked at it and I see no evidence of artifacts either visual or audio. Are you concerned with the black level? Our projector doesn't seem to have a problem making black look black. (It's a Panasonic DW-10000, not DCI). My experience with projecting BluRay is that it beats the quality of many of our prints especially for sharpness. Of course I wouldn't use it for scope as our fixed height screen makes it either letterboxed or zoomed for lower brightness - although we can also anamorph it for a lesser drop in brightness.  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 10-31-2008 10:02 PM                     quote: Peter Castle What's the issue with that scene in "Kill Bill Vol 2"? I've looked at it and I see no evidence of artifacts either visual or audio. Look at page 104 of the "Is Anyone Consuming HD-DVD or Blu-ray" thread in the Afterlife forum. It's the second to the last page. Joe posted a couple of screen shots (camera photos taken of the display) to show the kind of banding he's seeing. On my setup the banding didn't look quite that pronounced. I saw more steps of gradation. Still, the flaw is there. On the bright side, that flaw is only visible for about 1/10th of a second. Other than that, the Kill Bill: Vol. 2 disc is mostly excellent (if you overlook the deliberate crapping of imagery in the Pei Mei sequence).  |  IP: Logged Peter Castle Expert Film Handler Posts: 220 From: Wollongong University, NSW ,Australia Registered: Oct 2003 posted 11-01-2008 07:15 AM                     I checked that scene on my setup and found some minor banding in still frame BUT I had an image NOTHING like the images posted. My picture has nowhere near the red content that those image have. In fact, there's no overload of any of the primaries. My setup is a PS3 via HDMI to a 1920 LCD.  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 11-01-2008 05:32 PM                     I didn't see the level of coarse color banding Joe saw in that Kill Bill: Vol 2 scene either. But I could see the macro-blocking well enough for it to be noticeable after Joe brought it to my attention. I don't know why different TVs seem show that scene differently. There's no deficiency in my Sony KDL52XBR4 HDTV. If it was failing to reproduce certain colors or something the color banding in that scene would look worse than what Joe's screen shot photos displayed. One movie on BD that briefly looks like crap, at least on my TV, is Hellboy. I see some really obvious color banding in the opening titles, particularly where the "Hellboy" logo zooms away from the camera. The rest of the movie looks excellent.  |  IP: Logged Scott Jentsch Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1061 From: New Berlin, WI, USA Registered: Apr 2003 posted 11-04-2008 08:13 AM                        quote: Steve Guttag The other forms of HD (broadcast grade)...looked notably better than Blu-Ray. Am I understanding you right, that broadcast, over-the-air, HDTV looks better on your setup than Blu-ray-sourced material? I will defer to your practical experience, but on paper, that's just whacked. Except in cases of very poorly done Blu-ray titles (always a possibility), the Blu-ray version of a movie should always look better than something sent through the ATSC system. Personally, I've never seen anything on OTA or Satellite HD that was better than Blu-ray and HD DVD. I'd be very curious to see the problems that you have seen for curiosity's sake. I can believe how the better specs of D-Cinema (esp. in the range of color depth and data rates) and the potential of film should produce a better image on a 20-40' wide screen, but I would be surprised to see Blu-ray look unacceptable, especially on the smaller range of that screen width. Just goes to show, nothing replaces practical experience, I guess.  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 11-04-2008 09:08 AM                     Maybe Steve is referring to the original master tapes before the material is compressed down for broadcast. As for HD material that is received via broadcast, whether it is over the air, cable or satellite, that stuff is inferior to Blu-ray in terms of visual and audio quality. Blu-ray provides the best quality of high definition video the general public can see in their homes. The only things better are the uncompressed original masters or a high bit rate 2K JPEG2000 D-cinema version. Joe six pack won't have access to either.  |  IP: Logged Frank Angel Film God Posts: 5305 From: Brooklyn NY USA Registered: Dec 1999 posted 11-04-2008 10:46 AM                        The real issue is, if Joe SixPack goes into the theatre, will he be able to see that the theatre image and sound are better than what he has at home, OR will he still think his BluRay/HDTV home setup is better? Bet he does.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 11-04-2008 11:43 AM                     Yes, when I refer to "broadcast grade" sources...I'm referring to the broadcast industry, not over the air. Thus, the "HD" sources I'm referring to are HDCAM, D5, HDCAM-SR...not satellite and Cable...there are so many variables in them it would be too hard to qualify. Generally, I've found cable to be the weakest of the consumer HD sources..with the quality ALL OVER THE PLACE. Steve  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 11-04-2008 12:30 PM                     quote: Frank Angel The real issue is, if Joe SixPack goes into the theatre, will he be able to see that the theatre image and sound are better than what he has at home, OR will he still think his BluRay/HDTV home setup is better? That depends on the quality and upkeep of equipment at the movie theater versus what Joe SixPack has at home. In my town, I'd prefer watching movies at our local Carmike theater. But if I could only choose between our 12-plex at Central Mall and what I have in my living room, I would be watching Blu-ray discs in my living room. A good home theater setup can beat a poorly maintained movie theater with low end equipment. quote: Steve Guttag Generally, I've found cable to be the weakest of the consumer HD sources..with the quality ALL OVER THE PLACE. Satellite TV has the same problem. Some shows, such as True Blood on HBO, generally look really good in HD while other shows can fuzz and macroblock all to hell. Even the best looking shows tend to have issues with fast motion or subtle color gradients.  |  IP: Logged Scott Jentsch Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1061 From: New Berlin, WI, USA Registered: Apr 2003 posted 11-05-2008 10:43 AM                        And that brings the discussion right back to the emphasis on the quality of the presentation. Job 1 for any theater is to slam-dunk the presentation and make it the best it can possibly be. People are tired of poor presentations, backed by poor service and high prices. When theaters deliver a sub-standard product, audiences start deciding to stay home. With the advent of Blu-ray and HD DVD, they are now able to put on a show at home that can exceed what they have come to expect from their local movie theaters. With a release window of 3-4 months, it's not that difficult to wait for the current blockbusters to hit their Netflix queue. Putting together a good home theater takes effort and it can be costly to do, though. Theaters have the ability to provide that "restaurant" experience for movies, but so few of them do. Theaters that have solid presentations and back them with great service and reasonable prices (which combine for a positive movie-going experience) will attract customers. I would wager that a properly calibrated and configured system sourced by Blu-ray would be perceived as equal to or better by the general audience than what they have been conditioned to expect from the usual film presentations at most theaters. In the event that the picture can't be as good as one would like, I think customers are willing to put up with flaws so long as they feel that they aren't being ripped off. A simple presentation before the movie explaining the situation would assuage those concerns, especially in the instance of a movie that is a classic or a rare title. If all the theater does is toss in a DVD of a movie with no concern about the presentation and surrounding movie-going experience, they deserve backlash from their audience.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 11-05-2008 02:52 PM                     Scott, I was with you all the way util your wager on the quality of the Blu-Ray on the large screen. It really does fall apart a bit. Not like a DVD does and not that you can't "get away with it." The Blu-Ray is definitely sharper and overall a superior picture to a DVD, most definitely...but it is really a far cry from DCinema or Broadcast grade HD...as in it isn't a close call. Now I have not seen many Blu-Rays so I have no doubt that some will be much better than others. That was definitely the case with DVDs too. In fact, I carry several DVDs with me when I set up my systems to show the range of image quality one can have off of such a system. Thus the customer won't complain to me about image quality due to the potential of having a poorly mastered DVD. Steve  |  IP: Logged John Hawkinson Film God Posts: 2273 From: Cambridge, MA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 11-06-2008 12:34 AM                     This reminds me. Occasionally we have events where the media choices are DVD, DigiBeta, HDCAM, and HDCAM SR. Depending on the event budget, we typically choose DigiBeta or HDCAM. I do wonder where BD falls in this. I guess the obvious answer is "between DigiBeta and HDCAM, but way cheaper than DigiBeta." Any real experience with that? --jhawk  |  IP: Logged

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