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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Digital Cinema Forum   » Regal to go 100% Sony 4K? (Page 3)

 
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Author Topic: Regal to go 100% Sony 4K?
Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 05-17-2009 02:17 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Lyle Romer
As 4k digital aquisition becomes the norm, they're not going to downrez it to 2k for post production. CGI might still be done in 2k for a while but the non-cgi parts I'm sure will be 4k from camera to screen.
You can't really go direct from camera to screen with digital cameras unless you're happy with the 6 o'clock news look. All electronic video cameras no matter how glorified with 35mm film camera like gear must have their electronic footage processed to imitate the film look in post production. Shooting 24p alone isn't going to cut it. It costs a certain amount of money to apply film look processing to 1080p HD footage. Rendering time will be quadrupled for 4K footage.

The existing digital camera systems have speed/sensitivity issues that must be overcome to deliver acceptable image quality compared to 35mm in a wide variety of shooting environments -particularly in high speed and low light settings. Even the Panavision Genesis camera, which is only a 1080p HDTV level camera, has serious problems with low light photography. Get Smart shows off some of those limits all too well.

I don't think 35mm based photography is going away anytime soon. The only thing that will force a widespread dump of film-based production is if Kodak, Agfa and Fuji stop making film altogether or just go out of business. More and more movie productions are going to shoot "digital." However, good film camera setups still outperform the digital ones, especially in low light and high speed shooting environments. Digital just provides great levels of convenience and cost savings with trade-offs in image quality. Most major releases will still be shot on film for at least the next several years until it just becomes difficult to buy film stock.

I think the balance on 4K output becoming common will lie in the pricing and power of computing hardware. Currently RAM costs around $30 to $40 per gigabyte. The vast majority of computers still operate in the 32-bit realm. Once we can get over that 64-bit hump and RAM costs about 1/10th what it does today then 4K production should be much cheaper and easier to do. I think we're still a good year or two out from that. And that span of time may be enough that some new CMOS camera sensors are introduced that just blow away all the current ones in terms of speed and sensitivity.

We still have to remember that Hollywood studios are owned by larger bean-counting oriented corporations. They're looking for any way to cut costs and deliver barely "good enough" when they can get away with it. Some of these "suits" will see the speed and improvements with 4K production translated into saying "we can do 2K much cheaper than that! Let's keep doing 2K and save even more money!"

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Chris Slycord
Film God

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From: 청주시, 경북도, South Korea
Registered: Mar 2007


 - posted 05-17-2009 02:20 PM      Profile for Chris Slycord   Email Chris Slycord   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Distribution spend money... HA thats a joke... They've already trashed 70mm!! Don't forget that AMC paid quite a bit less per booth then 2 K equipment costs, actually somewhere between 15 and 20K less per booth. Anything that "Costs" distribution any extra $$ is likely to get snubbed and that includes 4K releases. 2K plays back fine on the 4K projectors just like 4K plays back fine on 2K projectors.
Way to go at ignoring the entire point of my statement.

Ignore for a second that they didn't pay a lot. The question still stands: Why would they NOT ask studios to release 4K material? If I've got a projector that can do 4K, I'd prefer people to release 4K material.

Monte's statement that the companies shouldn't care because they'd still be able to play the 2K material, which feels like saying "AMC shouldn't ask studios to release SDDS prints because it'll still have an analog backup."

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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From: Music City
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 - posted 05-17-2009 02:32 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Chris,

My point was that you can ask distribution all you want... for what ever you want.. till you're blue in the face. But you'd make better progress if you just beat your head on a brick wall than waiting for them to act! Why you think they'd do anything for anybody is beyond me... It would be a first if they did. Distribution only does things in general if the studio or if some big time director has the power to make them do so. Don't forget that Distribution already thinks 2K is adaquate.

Mark

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Chris Slycord
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From: 청주시, 경북도, South Korea
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 - posted 05-17-2009 02:49 PM      Profile for Chris Slycord   Email Chris Slycord   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
But it's not just some guy asking them to do it. You'll have people from AMC, Regal, possibly other chains (that go with Sony), along with people from Sony themselves trying to get them to do 4K.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

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From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 05-17-2009 02:56 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Ultimately what will happen is that the box office sales will show that 4K doesn't sell any extra tickets than a 2K theater does and thus, no need for 4K "prints".

quote: Steve Guttag
Where the DLP won was on color reproduction and contrast as well as uniformity.
And that is precisely my point.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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From: Music City
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 - posted 05-17-2009 03:44 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Exactly Brad! They are not going to spend any more $$ on anything unless there is some definite "show of extrea profit" from doing so. There was this from "Digital Sound" for a while but only for a while! Since they are already locked into the 2K mentality I say that 2K sourcing lives on no matter how many 4K projectors are installed. Heck, they are only producing 2K intermediates as it is for most of the releases today.

Mark

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

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From: Lawton, OK, USA
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 - posted 05-17-2009 04:47 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The main area where 4K is needed is with theaters boasting really large screen sizes. 2K thrown onto a 70' wide screen has a full scale resolution of only 2.4 pixels per inch. That's pretty low for large scale imagery that will be viewed at a fairly close distance for a couple of hours. 4K would go a lot farther in masking the screen door effect.

On a comparison of scale, the lowest resolution I use in designing billboard prints is 18ppi. And that would be for something like a 14' X 48' or larger board sitting alongside an interstate highway. I design at 36ppi or higher with 10' X 30' and smaller boards. LED-based billboards have really low resolution comparatively speaking. A 20mm pitch between pixel centers is common. The intense overglow of the LEDs helps a little to mask the pixel grid. Long term the trend is to tighten the pitch to 10mm and lower as LED costs continue to fall.

Unfortunately it seems the current 4K projector models don't put out the levels of brightness available from 2K projectors. That's a deal breaker for giant sized screens. It is pretty critical for Sony (and others) to improve their projector designs.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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From: Music City
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 - posted 05-17-2009 08:33 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Er, ahhh Bobby... Thats the area where the Sony 4K system falls apart. The largest screen you could attempt to cover is about 45' wide. There just are not enough lumens available for anything much larger.

Mark

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David Stambaugh
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 - posted 05-17-2009 08:36 PM      Profile for David Stambaugh   Author's Homepage   Email David Stambaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sony 4K D-Cinema White Paper: Does 4K really make a difference?

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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 - posted 05-17-2009 09:32 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It didn't do anything to convince me... The paper should be run through the shredder.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
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 - posted 05-17-2009 11:38 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The real unfortunate thing is as far as "digital" goes, watching at home on Blu-ray seems to be an ever improving choice.

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Monte L Fullmer
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 - posted 05-18-2009 01:16 AM      Profile for Monte L Fullmer   Email Monte L Fullmer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We know that home digital is really gonna explode...but, it isn't new material to watch along with you still staring at your same four walls of your home.

..and where is the excitment in doing that?

"Excitement" is the key word in any form of entertainment - why people come out of the woodwork to find this pleasure.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 05-18-2009 09:12 AM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
But getting price-gouged a premium because some business guy slaps a fancy brand name on what is still HDTV-ish 2K quality takes away a LOT of that excitement. We didn't have to pay a ticket price premium on film based 3D, but now we do with digital 3D. IMAX wants more money for showing 2K in a slightly bigger and brighter manner. Some theaters are charging more for better seats or assigning the customer a seat in some odd-ball area of the room. What's next, paying another premium to see the movie with sound properly equalized?

Commercial movie theaters are already on slippery ground with customers as it is. I haven't seen the new Star Trek movie yet although I'd like to do so. I've been waiting until the crowds die down enough that I may be able to watch it during some week night with as few other people in the room as possible -that way I might be able to enjoy the movie instead of getting tortured with all the usual distractions (cell phone use, noisy teens, crying babies, etc.).

Maybe the business guys will come up with new premium ticket pricing schemes around that theme: "Pay $3 more for a cell phone free show!" Or perhaps this: "Pay $5 for the aged 25 and up show! No noisy teens and no crying babies!"

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Martin McCaffery
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 - posted 05-18-2009 09:32 AM      Profile for Martin McCaffery   Author's Homepage   Email Martin McCaffery   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Maybe the business guys will come up with new premium ticket pricing schemes around that theme: "Pay $3 more for a cell phone free show!" Or perhaps this: "Pay $5 for the aged 25 and up show! No noisy teens and no crying babies!"

Or pay $5.00 for a theatre with and usher dedicated to that screen who will professionally and quickly deal with ANY problems. How retro;>

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Mark J. Marshall
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From: New Castle, DE, USA
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 - posted 05-18-2009 09:53 AM      Profile for Mark J. Marshall     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Bobby Henderson
What's next, paying another premium to see the movie with sound properly equalized?
Hey, given the theaters around here, I might go for that one.

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