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Author Topic: Other digital format recommendations Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 08-06-2009 09:11 AM                     James, In the documentary and independent film maker field this gear isn't going away so quickly. Many film makers of these sorts of films don't have the budgets for new ultra expensive gear as you refer to or to even rent it for the long term that these sorts of films require. Hence you will see it in the States for some time to come. Even Beta SP hangs on because of many third world countries. It will probably be at least anopther decade before Betacam SP finally disappears for good. Sony still widely supports the recorders for parts and even stills services many of them. Take the BVV-5 for instance. Its built like a brick shit house and dam near every part is still available at least for NTSC models. Ditto for the PVV-3. Most of the rest of the world is still running SDTV be it PAL or NTSC. Mark  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 08-07-2009 12:01 AM                     I have zero doubt that magnetic tape based media will go away for video just like it has almost done for audio but I think we are quite a ways away from that in broadcast. HDCAM-SR is the current darling and it is cassette tape based...its star is continuing to be on the rise. The current number of BetaSP though HDCAM will keep them valuable for quite some time in any event. Some of our clients continue to run U-Matic (3/4) for heaven's sake! If you are in the business of running broadcast grade videos (BetaSP through HDCAM-SR) then you need to be able to accommodate them at the level you run them. Everything becomes obsolete, someday. Note too most of us are recommending J series decks or even the mighty M2000 that plays everything but HDCAM-SR. The idea is not to buy a bunch of high dollar machines...either get one that does it all or get a couple of low-cost machines. Steve  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 08-07-2009 01:16 PM                     quote: Some of our clients continue to run U-Matic (3/4) for heaven's sake! U-Matic also has an SP system along the lines of Betacam SP. Quality is not quite as good although REZ is about the same video SN is not as good nor is the color recorded seperately as a component signal. Mark  |  IP: Logged James B Gardiner Film Handler Posts: 91 From: North Altona, Victoria, Ausrtalia Registered: Feb 2009 posted 08-08-2009 03:50 AM                     Mark, Steve, Your based on the US aren't you... Here in Australia, eCinema is in 90% of all independent or Art house cinemas. This has become well known and accepted.. SO.. If you are an independent film maker or documentary maker. YOU KNOW to make a eCinema file you can drop on a USB hard drive. If you ever want to go see it in a cinema, you have NO tape or duplication costs. Anyone with half a brain is doing this now to save costs. Sure, there is a lot of OLD content that may re-surface on the occasion, but then again, if its content likely to re-surface its probably been converted to an eCinema format too.. What I am getting back here is that Tape based content is less and less likely to show up. Here in Australia, tape based playback is now very uncommon. The US is Hollywood centric and one eyed DCI and eCinema is a dirty word.. Yes you probably would need Tape units. The marketing and propaganda from the Hollywood engine has made eCinema type technologies less common. But on a world bases, adoption of eCinema based technologies for what makes sense is very strong. James  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 08-08-2009 09:35 PM                        Who is still using 3/4" for exhibition and why? There are a couple of venues around here that still have the decks, but they would only be used to play back older material, which shows up very rarely. (One nice aspect about 3/4" SP is that the tapes play fine (at lower resolution) in non-SP decks.) James--none of this stuff is regularly used for day-to-day exhibition of the same title in the US. Nearly all of that would be either 35mm or DCI. The tape stuff is for festivals, work-in-progress screenings, and special venues (art museums, etc.). In those situations, tape is more convenient than file-based storage because the tapes can be played directly and easily moved from one venue to another with no "ingest" time or compatibility issues. For once- or twice-only screenings, tape is really the most convenient and reliable format.  |  IP: Logged James B Gardiner Film Handler Posts: 91 From: North Altona, Victoria, Ausrtalia Registered: Feb 2009 posted 08-08-2009 10:02 PM                     Well around here, those well known art house cinemas do still have tape. But you know what they do now.. Most of the time, they suck the content in to a editing system and render it down to a eCinema format. WHY. well, for one, its much more reliable., you can then play it on ANY screen. You can store it for next time. etc. In terms of production screenings, again, the producers find it much cheaper and faster to render the time line for the screening. Hireing a Deck etc for going to tape then the cinema having to charge them for use of such kit.. For independent films and doco's, if you know this is going to work, why waist the money on tape? This is all about knowing what your doing and the adoption of new technologies. eCinema technology looks good and is cheaper. The only reason not to be doing it is because your behind the times. You have been encouraged not to. eCinema is apsolutley HUGE in any part of the world not connected strongly to Hollywood content and the Hollywood influences. Australia is strongly influenced by Hollywood, and eCinema technologies is still huge and has made a massive effect on the industry. You talk to ANY production people. Tape work flows are over for those who don't want to do film. You would be foolish to purchase any technology that is tape based these days. Listen to the Digital Production Buzz podcast. Just surf to any popular production website. Tape is being pushed into top end Mastering only. HDcamSR, which no cinema would ever purchase as it is just too expensive, is the only tape format that people expect to use. Ie for archival storage of Masters. HDcam is used commonly as a TV distribution format and cheaper Mastering format. But many see that going away and file based storage taking over.. Once a tape hits a TV station or any destination, its turned into a file anyway. We are just talking about how it gets between one place and another. In the near future it is not going to be tape. For example, we do a lot of eCinema encodes in our company. We have DigitBeta, HDcam DV etc decks. But of late, about the last year. We don't really use them. Masters are coming in on 1TB drives as uncompressed files and audio stems. (Thank god no more DA88). Any editor can output master files like that.. 1TB drives are like 1gig USB stick littered about your house to a Post house.  |  IP: Logged Brian Guckian Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 594 From: Dublin, Ireland Registered: Apr 2003 posted 08-13-2009 11:59 AM                     Oh for the days of the 35mm and 16mm print! One knew where one stood... Cinemas that screen Festivals etc. are now experiencing the phenomenon of format proliferation which places unsustainable demands on their resources. This then forces the use of inappropriate formats like Blu-Ray, which was never engineered for large-screen projection. Some filmmakers also wrongly believe that the screening venue should be able to show whatever format they show up with, without thinking of the huge capital and maintenance burden this imposes (not to mention training for the Projection staff). One approach that could be used is to insist that the filmmaker supply either a DigiBeta tape or a 35mm print, period. A not unreasonable stance - it's most unfair to expect regular theatres to be kitted out like Screening Rooms  |  IP: Logged David Kilderry Master Film Handler Posts: 355 From: Melbourne Australia Registered: Sep 1999 posted 08-13-2009 06:56 PM                        You said it Brian. The last few festivals I was involved with were nightmares. Next time it is 35mm and evreything else compiled in advance on one format; disc, Digi beta, 16mm, USB I don't care, but don't mix them up every 5 minutes. To be honest,if a film-maker can't afford a DCI or 35mm print for their feature release, they are not worthy of a theatrical release anyway unless they are subsidised. The beauty of 35mm meant that only the quality productions reached our commercial screens. When money was tight, but the film was woth a release there was always the money to kick the Super 16 up to 35mm or even a 16mm release in some circumstances. The digital era, especially the e-cinema 1.3 format, has made everyone think they can make a feature on their creidt card. These films simply don't see a release and never will.  |  IP: Logged Brendan Penny Expert Film Handler Posts: 121 From: Bundoora, Australia Registered: Dec 2008 posted 08-14-2009 12:47 AM                     quote: David Kilderry To be honest,if a film-maker can't afford a DCI or 35mm print for their feature release, they are not worthy of a theatrical release anyway unless they are subsidised. I second that as long as you acknowledge the flip side to that coin... If an exhibitor can't afford a decent projector, digital sound, decent speakers they are not worthy of opening their doors.  |  IP: Logged Ron Curran Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 504 From: Springwood NSW Australia Registered: Feb 2006 posted 08-14-2009 04:04 AM                        This is the 21st Century and all commercial cinemas should be showing 70mm prints of films that were shot on at least 65mm film with matrixed dts 9 channel sound. But it is not happening. In the real world e-cinema is just like our non-commercial tv. Minority audiences in remote locations have an opportunity to appreciate specialist creative work via a professional presentation. Not everybody wants to see billion dollar fx games of violence with a number after the title. The US still produces many good films but these days we could not rely on Hollywood output to satisfy our audience. Australia, UK, Asia and the rest of the world are highly represented on our independent cinema screens Some 35mm, some e-cinema. If it were not for e-cinema a lot of these productions would not be shown. They are presented from 2K files through decent projectors (mostly) and audiences are happy. OK, there are some cinemas accepting letterboxed Scope features on e-cinema files - a pox on you and the distributor! Of course we will be changing to the Hollywoood-sanctioned dci stuff when it is necessary, just to make work flow easier with the mainstream/independent mix. Or we will be retiring.  |  IP: Logged James B Gardiner Film Handler Posts: 91 From: North Altona, Victoria, Ausrtalia Registered: Feb 2009 posted 08-14-2009 07:24 AM                     Ron, very well put. And yes, we will one day be prodomently DCI, but that is not going to negate the need for eCinema capable systems. eCinema files have their advantages and are far more common in a non-cinema sense. These files WILL bump into your cinema. You can either convert them to DCI, or just play them on a eCinema box. (Or tell them to go to the cinema in the next suburb that does deal with it.) I would also like to point out that in many (third world especially) countries, DCI equipment is just not economically feasible. The DCI push is ALL Hollywood based for Hollywood type films. All these small countries are using eCinema technologies for locally produced films at a fraction of the cost of using DCI. It works for them. It gets the story across all be it in that slightly less quality. But at the end of the day, movies are going to screen, and people are being entertained. James  |  IP: Logged Martin McCaffery Film God Posts: 2481 From: Montgomery, AL Registered: Jun 99 posted 08-14-2009 07:57 AM                        quote: David Kilderry To be honest,if a film-maker can't afford a DCI or 35mm print for their feature release, they are not worthy of a theatrical release anyway unless they are subsidised. As far as commercial feature releases, yes, I agree totally. However, I started this topic because there are plenty of films which are not intended for commercial release, both feature and shorts. Right now, we are only set up to show DVD's (as well as 16mm and 35mm, but those weren't the problems) and most of the visiting filmmakers and touring festivals we get are quite happy with the result (even if I'm not). They want their films to be seen, even if they have no commercial potential. As others who deal with actual film festivals have noted, there is a proliferation of formats in the digital world. Ideally, there would be some standardized format affordable to truly independent filmmakers and the the art houses and museums where their films will play. This niche was once filled by 16mm. In retrospect, it resulted in some pretty crappy presentations, but it got the films out there. So does YouTube, but I'm hoping we can achieve a higher standard.  |  IP: Logged Brian Guckian Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 594 From: Dublin, Ireland Registered: Apr 2003 posted 08-14-2009 07:58 AM                     Note that being sensible about what formats a typical venue can resonably be expected to screen is not an attack on independent cinema nor on the necessary and welcome diversity of Cinema in general. Just a call for common sense, and standards too - basic education in the essentials of theatrical exhibition seems to be missing from a great many film school curricula.  |  IP: Logged James B Gardiner Film Handler Posts: 91 From: North Altona, Victoria, Ausrtalia Registered: Feb 2009 posted 08-14-2009 08:28 AM                     As DVD is crappy and such poor quality. DCI is fantastic but to expensive. eCinema sits in the middle.. If eCinema is going to fill the middle ground void, yes the lack of standards is a big issue. Which brings us to the issue of.. Can we all, as in a community of exhibition operators, agree upon a eCinema standard for file creation. If so, what would this standard be in the opinion of those here? If a standard was in general acceptance thought out our industry, we could drive those using it in that direction and reduce the issues that do come with eCinema. James  |  IP: Logged Martin McCaffery Film God Posts: 2481 From: Montgomery, AL Registered: Jun 99 posted 08-14-2009 10:14 AM                        quote: James B Gardiner Can we all, as in a community of exhibition operators, agree upon a eCinema standard for file creation. If so, what would this standard be in the opinion of those here? Agreed. Though, shouldn't that be SMPTE's job  |  IP: Logged

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