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Author Topic: Will series-1 projectors run future movies? William F Green Film Handler Posts: 84 From: Brighton, East Sussex, UK Registered: Jun 2005 posted 07-18-2011 09:44 PM                     Hi Kevin, I probably wasn't clear, or it's quite possible that the VPF deals are different in the UK. £15k is only our 'exhibitor contribution' (25%)to the VPF deal total cost. We don't get the £15k back at all. Do your VPF deals in the US cover the whole cost of the kit or only a proportion of it as here? If we buy a series 1 this will not involve VPF's at all - it will just be an outright purchase. We are currently fundraising...  |  IP: Logged Brian Guckian Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 594 From: Dublin, Ireland Registered: Apr 2003 posted 07-19-2011 12:39 PM                     This post will be way off-beam William compared to the other (saner) contributions, but it might be useful all the same . With a Series 1 machine you are locked into the current poor 2K standard in addition to the other issues. Now here's the thing - "digital" is as much a cultural (and political) phenomenon as a technological one...the "D" word seems to open all kinds of doors that "Film" no longer does. So - what if you simply endlessly repeat the matra that "The Future is Digital" and indeed "The Future is 4K" to your funders (public, private or both), until they come up with enough money to enable you to purchase a 4K projector and server outright? Crazy as it may be, it seems that if you simply repeat these assertions often enough they seem to work! Arts organisations in the UK as elsewhere (my own country included) have all bought into the groupthink that digital is "necessary", "important", "vital", etc. - so why not use this to your advantage? It seems like money is actually no object with digital - and it would be interesting to see just how far public bodies etc. are willing to support their pro-digital beliefs in financial terms.  |  IP: Logged William F Green Film Handler Posts: 84 From: Brighton, East Sussex, UK Registered: Jun 2005 posted 07-19-2011 01:21 PM                     Brian, actually I don't think what you're saying is necessarily that wide-of-the-mark. We have missed-out on previous funding handouts such as the UK film council DCN funding as we were not full-time. Despite the (wrong) public statements at the time by UKFC that anybody could apply, we couldn't because we were not full-time. Since then we have also missed-out on more UK film council funding simply for being in the 'wrong' area. We've seen all around us benefit from funding - even a film club in the same arts centre as us got £10k for DVD projection. So, now I'm inclined to agree with you - we need to get on the 'digital is best' bandwagon and are currently looking at forming a charitable structure specifically to raise funds for new equipment. Being charitable is likely to make us eligible for more funding than we are at present. Along the lines of your suggestions we have just had our first 'fundraising' screening for digital equipment. We were very open about what we needed and the fact that it was going to be digital. The local press covered us and we raised £500 towards the fund on our first modest screening. Trouble is, it could take us at least a year to raise a substantial amount towards new kit. What do you think of VPF deals Brian?  |  IP: Logged Louis Bornwasser Film God Posts: 4441 From: prospect ky usa Registered: Mar 2005 posted 07-19-2011 07:37 PM                        Nothing "said" can be actioned on later in a court. Get everything in writing, especially if someone says that an old projector is elligible for anything. At the least, you would want your money back. Louis  |  IP: Logged Sam D. Chavez Film God Posts: 2153 From: Martinez, CA USA Registered: Aug 2003 posted 07-19-2011 09:52 PM                       Series 2 projectors and server prices are dropping steadily and are actually quite a lot less than series 1 goods cost just 2 years ago. Go for the series 2. I agree with Brian.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 07-19-2011 10:25 PM                     Yes, the Series 2 projectors are also considerably simpler inside than series 1 was. Less to break = better reliability. Mark  |  IP: Logged Brian Guckian Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 594 From: Dublin, Ireland Registered: Apr 2003 posted 07-20-2011 08:41 AM                     quote: William F Green What do you think of VPF deals Brian? Apologies as I know very little about that area I'm afraid, but of course there is great expertise available here. Also top-rate Integrators / Installers in the UK like Bell Theatre Services, Omnex Pro-Film and Sound Associates should be able to advise further. BTW - suggestion: try at all costs to keep your 35mm equipment in situ also  |  IP: Logged Elise Brandt Expert Film Handler Posts: 160 From: Kuusankoski, FIN/ Kouvola, Finland Registered: Dec 2009 posted 07-21-2011 02:14 AM                     Jumping in as a fellow European. I have to say I hate the idea of the VPF servitude, but that depends greatly on the terms. Will "they" have a say in your programming? What does the fine print say -will you be able to make the VPF quota issued to you? They assure you that you can, but they don't know your business as you do. Can you really? What will the penalties be if you don't? The series 2 is what I'd go for, if the terms are acceptable. You get the maintenance as well in that deal, that's very attractive. What worries me is... well, if they're ready to include a small part-time cinema in the deal, they stand to gain something from it. Maybe it's from the goodness of their hearts but me, I don't think so. I'm just too suspicious of the VPF deals, maybe because we haven't needed one thanks to the governmental grants -type of situation we have here. Who proposed the deal to you? Is it a non-profit entity whose goal is to leave no one behind (good guys) or a financially-angled third party?  |  IP: Logged Larry Zuverink Film Handler Posts: 98 From: Caledonia, MI, USA Registered: Nov 2002 posted 07-21-2011 10:10 PM                     Remember also if your even remotely thinking about 3D, Series 1 needs to be upgraded to do full frame triple flash. Also I know that the majority of Christie Series 1 are not HDCP compliant if you plan on doing Alt Content.  |  IP: Logged John Gavin Film Handler Posts: 12 From: Machida, Tokyo, Japan Registered: Nov 2010 posted 08-02-2011 02:04 AM                     Series 1 projectors have at least, Cinelink 1 encryption. I cannot see anyone being denied content with a Series 1. There are still thousands of them installed around the globe. The issue would only be with new VPF installs, where there is a requirement that the equipment be DCI certified ( though this is not yet being enforced ), at some point it probably will be. That said, I would as mentioned, want a killer deal on the Series 1. As for 2K or 4K, to the customer no one will see any difference on moving image. That is why there is a push to higher frame rates for 2D and 3D. No point in spending money if the customer cannot tell the difference. Disclaimer: This post is my opinion, nothing more.  |  IP: Logged William F Green Film Handler Posts: 84 From: Brighton, East Sussex, UK Registered: Jun 2005 posted 08-02-2011 09:02 AM                     I am extremely grateful for the opinions offered here - I am grappling with all of our options at the moment (it feels like a monumental task for a small company such as ours) and once I've got a better idea of all the options open to us I will report here in case others find the info useful. Should know more this week..  |  IP: Logged William F Green Film Handler Posts: 84 From: Brighton, East Sussex, UK Registered: Jun 2005 posted 08-03-2011 12:44 PM                     We have now been offered the following used kit: Christie CP 2000s or NEC NC800 both of these come with Doremi servers, Cine IPM but do not include a lamp! Now most people are saying we should go for the Christie but it's not a straightforward choice as a new long-throw lens would have to ordered making the Christie well over £21,500 (before tax) which seems a heck of a lot for a series 1 machine to me. Additionally the Christie needs 3-phase power which we DON'T currently have in the projection room. Bearing in mind that the venue we use can be hostile to changes (such as installing 3-phase) it starts to look as if the Christie is not a viable choice for us. The NEC operates from a single phase supply but uses horribly expensive lamps. But it's also cheaper than the Christie and has a lens that can do the job (waiting for confirmation on that) for no extra cost bringing-in the total purchase to £15000 (plus tax). Now I know from talking to people this last week and from info here that the NEC's light output is more limited and it's very unsuitable for 3D but neither of these is a problem for us. The third potential alternative is that there might be a Christie CP 2000M available from somebody else but I really don't know the price yet. Single phase supply and semi-portable format. Does anybody have any thoughts on the above options? Thanks!  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 08-03-2011 12:55 PM                     But.... Which CP-2000? There are several variations M, S, SB, etc and several variations in rectifier. The Thyrisistor based rectifier in the earlier CP-2000's has it's own problems and quirks and can cause it's own visual artifacts. What was the date of manufacture of the projector? Does it have EFIB or FFIB? Have you run the Christie Interrogator software to see what type of interface board it has? To see if it can even be updated to the Gore style board or not which the studios may eventually require be installed in all Series 1 projectors (some can not be updated) and if it's HDCP compliant or not... some later interface modules are HDCP compliant. Figure as much as an extra 3500 USD to install the Gore update plus labor. For sure pass on the NEC as it ONLY takes the very expensive Cermax style modular xenon lamps... About 2K USD each! What would you do if this lamp company shut down? The projector itself is actually pretty decent though and quite light efficient because of the modular lamp. For some reason or other there are lots of NC-800's in Europe. The Christie M is a good projector for the right job. It accepts interchangable lamps and also accepts 1kw and 1.6kw short cinema type lamps. It can easily light up a 20' wide screen with a 1.6kw cinema lamp to spec on a 1.0 gain screen. I've done it several times myself. But from another view point the M was only made for a brief time period... about a year and a half... and it is certainly the odd ball in the Christie Series 1 line up. PArts will certainly become scarce much quicker. The 2kw lamp (or is it now 1.8kw) is also pricy and has a short life span. So from your present line up I'd be far more inclined to pick the CP-2000 even though the lens costs more. I'd say shop around for the lens some where else! Any lens from BARCO, NEC or Christie will fit the CP-2000. If it turns out to be an S or SB all the better. There are also so many of them around that parts should not be an issue for quite a few years to come. Mark  |  IP: Logged William F Green Film Handler Posts: 84 From: Brighton, East Sussex, UK Registered: Jun 2005 posted 08-03-2011 01:32 PM                     Great info thanks Mark. It's a Christie CP2000-S we are being offered and I didn't know that lenses from other machines would fit. One engineer/installer here has told me he thinks that the Christie could be made to operate from a 220v single phase supply although maybe not the ballast/rectifier. Apparently the Doremi DCP 2000 servers supplied have the latest FIPS compliant media block fitted and the FIPS upgrade to the projector itself is available at £2000. I'm not sure about HDCP compliance though and I have asked about this as we do screen a fair amount of alternative content. Doesn't a CINE IPM unit make a connected proj HDCP compliant or is HDCP compliance required right through the chain? How do the prices look? Fair?  |  IP: Logged Brian Guckian Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 594 From: Dublin, Ireland Registered: Apr 2003 posted 08-03-2011 02:50 PM                     I think the prices are reasonable (don't know enough about the HDCP issue unfortunately). I think the real issue is how to bridge the gap between the STG£ 15K you are able to contribute and the STG£ 21,500 plus you really need to make things work whilst avoiding VPFs. Is there any way a Grant could be obtained from the local Council, etc.? You've already commendably done some fundraising and I wonder if top-up grant funding could get you over the finish line. You could try to economise in terms of projector choice, but as Mark points out, you then pay over the odds for items like lamps. A Series 1 machine is clearly a compromise, and you may have to replace it in a few years time, but it looks like this is going to be the best option in terms of total finance available and your situation (apologies as I'd missed the fact you were a 60-day-a-year venue, which essentially Voids comments I made earlier in this thread). In terms of installing 3-phase power, again I would have thought that if your hosts were informed you are "going digital" then any opposition should evaporate. In the bigger scheme of things, it shouldn't be a major issue. Any "bodging" in this area should certainly be avoided.  |  IP: Logged

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