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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Digital Cinema Forum   » Do high-frequency speakers deteriorate over time? Or is it just my ears? (Page 5)

 
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Author Topic: Do high-frequency speakers deteriorate over time? Or is it just my ears?
Sam D. Chavez
Film God

Posts: 2153
From: Martinez, CA USA
Registered: Aug 2003


 - posted 01-07-2013 08:57 PM      Profile for Sam D. Chavez   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello Paul,

I don't see a previous posting from you on this topic unless I overlooked it.

So, I would look elsewhere first other than the THX monitor with CE made crossovers.

What is the model of the amps, brand and model of speakers? How big is the cinema?

It does sound alarming to blow 2 HF drivers in one week.

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Louis Bornwasser
Film God

Posts: 4441
From: prospect ky usa
Registered: Mar 2005


 - posted 01-08-2013 06:13 AM      Profile for Louis Bornwasser   Author's Homepage   Email Louis Bornwasser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
First: put pink noise into crossover. Then go to amp output and be certain that nothing below the crossover frequency is present. It is helpful to know the make/model of the hf driver. Louis

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Paul Stevens
Film Handler

Posts: 42
From: Galena, Ohio, USA
Registered: Oct 2006


 - posted 01-08-2013 04:09 PM      Profile for Paul Stevens   Email Paul Stevens   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The original power amplifiers were QSC 1500C. The HF driver is an EV 81256. Both rooms are fairly large 72 X 53. Three new Crown T5000 HD replaced the QSC's in one auditorium. The crossover cards correctly isolate HF and LF components. Equalization does not involve any corrective HF spectra and sound pressure levels are to spec. Everything appears right under stand test criteria. Oh by the way, the duration to failure has been about a month. The domes are shattered. Very strange.

The common thread between the two auditoriums the 7.1 version of Les Measurable.

I have not sat through the nearly 3 hours feature in an attempt to locate any special spots in the sound track to directly analyze. However the highly energetic and compressed sound tracks of several releases in the last six months that something damaging my be blasting past all limiting factors that keeps parts from flying through the screen.

Thanks for any idea's you may have.

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Sam D. Chavez
Film God

Posts: 2153
From: Martinez, CA USA
Registered: Aug 2003


 - posted 01-08-2013 07:34 PM      Profile for Sam D. Chavez   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It sounds like you have no lack of power from the Crown amps. The DH 1 driver that goes with the HF diaphragm you mentioned is used all over the place.

We don't know the horn type but this should not be the problem.

So this leaves all the other possibilities.

Cinema processor type might give a clue to likeliness of internal clipping.

Oscillation?

I have had problems with the 3417 crossovers and other monitors if there is no ground return from one of the power amp - terminals to the crossover -. Under certain conditions, it will break into ringing and the shattered HF units make this a likely cause.

LF leakage into the HF?

So you never had this problem before replacing the amps? How long ago were the amps changed?

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Paul Stevens
Film Handler

Posts: 42
From: Galena, Ohio, USA
Registered: Oct 2006


 - posted 01-26-2013 01:11 PM      Profile for Paul Stevens   Email Paul Stevens   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thank you your thoughts. This is the strangest thing I have ever encountered. Will look into the ground return possibility. I suspect it may be a destructive octave that is just perfect for the diaphragm to shatter. If I can find out what it is I can filter it out.

Wish me luck!

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Chuck McGregor
Film Handler

Posts: 47
From: Bremen, ME, USA
Registered: Mar 2012


 - posted 01-29-2013 10:58 AM      Profile for Chuck McGregor   Email Chuck McGregor   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Paul Stevens
blasting past all limiting factors that keeps parts from flying through the screen.
As they are bi-amplified, are there "protection" capacitors in line (i.e. in series) with the HF driver on the amplifier outputs?

Typically HF diaphragms shattering is almost always the result of the diaphragm bottoming out against the phase plug. HF oscillations or excess higher frequencies will burn out the coil not shatter the diaphragm.

It would seem some kind of low frequency energy got to the drivers. This could be from a dc pulse, a low frequency oscillation, SW or LF signal bleed. Very hard to say.

All it takes is one good slam to the phase plug to cause damage. This is especially true for titanium diaphragms, not so much with softer aluminum ones, and very rarely a problem with phenolic-type (like polyamide), or carbon fiber diaphragms. One such HF driver made of the latter was tested for around 24 hours of hard slamming against the phase plug using an LF sine wave. The result? An abraded poly-carbonate phase plug. But I digress.

Bottom lines:

You almost assuredly had an "LF event" that occurred in or from something between the output of the electronic crossover and the drivers.

If you don't have them you (anyone actually who is bi-amplified) should have protection capacitors on the HF drivers to protect against both dc voltage and below crossover LF from getting to the drivers for whatever reason.

After the electronic crossover there is usually no such protection, hence the use of "protection" capacitors. This likely would not have happened had they been in place.

Such capacitors must be non-polarized "by nature," like metallized polypropylene (i.e not electrolytics back-to-back), have a low ESR (equivalent series resistance), and an ac voltage rating 3 times (for reliability) the maximum voltage capability of the amplifier (not driver). This should be the peak voltage aka clip voltage, not rms. A 250 V rating is usually sufficient and is a common specification.

Their value must be small enough to block as much low frequency energy as possible without substantially affecting the crossover response. This means measuring or modeling the crossover response with and without the capacitor. For a 500 Hz electronic crossover this would end up in the rough ballpark of 50 uF to 75 uF, but it depends. Higher crossover points mean a smaller value. Lastly they should be soldered in in-line right at the driver. I normally connect one lead of the capacitor directly to the driver.

This all means they could be big (inches in size) and cost way more than your your "average" capacitor. Sources are limited and after much research I settled on "Pulse-X" from ERSE Audio. It's "audiophile" oriented ($$) but the product has the right characteristics and thus worth the price.

It cost me about $60 each (with shipping) to outfit the 3 screen channels. Several times since then a pulse has been accidently sent to the drivers at the full output voltage of the amplifiers > 55 V, which was generated AFTER the electronic crossover. The driver is rated for 40 V peak, but only ABOVE 500 Hz. Because excursion quadruples for each halving of frequency this pulse with a lot of LF energy in it should have caused instant catastrophe = diaphragm dust. They're fine.

Just my $0.02

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Paul Stevens
Film Handler

Posts: 42
From: Galena, Ohio, USA
Registered: Oct 2006


 - posted 02-09-2013 08:21 AM      Profile for Paul Stevens   Email Paul Stevens   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thank you very much for the 2 cents. I had very little knowledge of the material composition of the diaphragms, or that alternatives were available.

The EV replacements for both auditoriums center channels lasted only about three weeks before shattering. I received a generic version of the same diaphragm and noticed immediately the rigidity was much greater. I would guess that it was of a different metal composition. So far the generic versions are holding up.

Literally every component in the chain including active crossovers were changed out and levels meticulously measured. What leaves me more perplexed than anything is this has not be reported happening anywhere in the company system, and only two of the 17 auditoriums I maintain.

Thanks again for the recommendations.

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Louis Bornwasser
Film God

Posts: 4441
From: prospect ky usa
Registered: Mar 2005


 - posted 02-09-2013 08:27 AM      Profile for Louis Bornwasser   Author's Homepage   Email Louis Bornwasser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My experience with EV diaphragms is that they are very fragile. I am 98% JBL diaphrgms. I sold 10 times the EV diaphragms to the 2%. You do the math. Louis

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System Notices
Forum Watchdog / Soup Nazi

Posts: 215

Registered: Apr 2004


 - posted 03-23-2014 12:27 AM      Profile for System Notices         Edit/Delete Post 

It has been 406 days since the last post.


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Bob Ezra
Film Handler

Posts: 75
From: Carbondale, CO, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 03-23-2014 12:27 AM      Profile for Bob Ezra   Email Bob Ezra   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Old thread but

Mike- what model QSC screen speakers did you get and do you hear an improvement in dialogue?

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 03-23-2014 11:51 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
They are three SC-423C's in biamp config right now, and two SB-7218's. I don't remember which surrounds or how many but it was quite a few. Fourteen comes to mind but that may have been another system...

Mark

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Marco Giustini
Film God

Posts: 2713
From: Reading, UK
Registered: Nov 2007


 - posted 03-23-2014 01:20 PM      Profile for Marco Giustini   Email Marco Giustini   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Nice. It's a shame nobody installs the THX wall anymore these days.

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Bob Ezra
Film Handler

Posts: 75
From: Carbondale, CO, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 03-23-2014 01:45 PM      Profile for Bob Ezra   Email Bob Ezra   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
any opinions or experience with the 322xc ?

http://qsccinema.com/products/?family=Loudspeakers&series=DCS%20Series

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 03-23-2014 01:46 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This location is about 900 seats and we couldn't build a full wall because the stage is multipurpose. So we re-utilized a set of old Simplex Voice Of The Theater Speakers that were there as partial baffles and they were already on roll around stands. We reinforced the old stands and extended the baffle both up and down. Then covered it with the appropriate Johns Manville liner. The response was excellent in this room. There are four QSC subs not shown in these pictures. And these are fully triamped with four channels of amplification per channel. There are pins that go through the bottoms of the stands into the floor to properly locate each speaker when they are rolled back into position. Note that this theater is in a town of just 3000 people.

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Bob Ezra
Film Handler

Posts: 75
From: Carbondale, CO, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 03-23-2014 05:01 PM      Profile for Bob Ezra   Email Bob Ezra   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Is this Mike Blakesley's theatre?
It was his situation (at the start of this thread) that I was inquiring about.

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