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Author Topic: Barco Vs Nec Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 08-19-2013 04:59 PM                     What is the approximate price difference between the NC900 und 10sx in the US? In germany, it can be as low as 3000€ (4000US$) incl. server/IMS. That's a tough competition for the NEC. - Carsten  |  IP: Logged Marco Giustini Film God Posts: 2713 From: Reading, UK Registered: Nov 2007 posted 08-20-2013 12:32 PM                     I still believe that UHP lamps do not belong to this industry. Yes, they look cheaper, but I have a feeling that with time if you do the math you'll regret not having a Xenon lamp!  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 08-20-2013 01:48 PM                     Carsten... It all depends on how many you are selling, what your price breaks are and so on. I can easily sell the NC-900 with the GDC IMB(which the latter is a little more expensive than the Doremi IMS)for what the basic 10SX would cost us. I can imagine the euro pricing would be closer since there is no import or long distance shipping involved. I have also on occasion have seen my (Christie) competition's quotes only to see the Christie projector is also priced about the same as the Barco. The local Christie dealer like to quote the DSS-200 which seems some what out of place and irrelevant in a small projector. Both Barco and Christie may ultimately be more expensive to operate on any screen because of the possibility of some day you may loose the mirror in say a 15 year operating span. System as mounted on Kelmar wall hung platform. Current draw full system in 120 volt UPS. Rnning the system on a 220 volt UPS cuts this current draw in half. Mark  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 08-20-2013 02:53 PM                     Taking the whole IMS/IMB thing out of it (you supply your own) so we are comparing same-same. The NEC is about $7K US less. Then again, it is also just shy of 1/2 the lumen output too. As for servers...we all have our opinions on that...The Dolby DSS200 being my favorite, I don't see it as irrelevant in any installation except a Christie Solaria 1/1+ since they only come with the Christie IMB.  |  IP: Logged Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 08-21-2013 06:40 AM                     The price difference for europe I mentioned was for the same server/IMB combo in the NEC and Barco machine, in both cases a Doremi ShowVault/IMB. - Carsten  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 08-24-2013 02:47 PM                     The only other problem I found was the DOREMI IMS has some issues formating the projector presets from automation cues from the server that on the first one we installed was not resolved  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 08-24-2013 06:07 PM                     Carsten... Comparing the same IMS server in NEC or Barco the NEC is still about 5500 USD less for me to sell. Since I had bad luck with first IMS samples I stayed away from it all together. No issues at all with the SX-3000... or the NC-900 for that matter. Steve... Again... It's a meaningless statement to say the Barco has more lumens. That is irrelevant when a given projector is used with in it's specs. Of course the Barco better have more light output or at least it certainly better, it costs a lot more. You also have that expensive reflector and heat filter in there to consoder and... legally one may have to employ a certified electrician on the install to keep with in code. The NEC runs on either 120 or 220V. Athough Barco only rates the 10SX for a 33 foot wide screen and the NEC comfortably does a 30 foot wide screen so there is not that much of a real life difference. I can jump to the NC-1200 for the almost exactly the same price as the 10SX and I have already had an instance at a twin where I did just that, lenses are a bit more money is about all. However, both the 10SX and the NC-900 are way way less money than the other dealer here is selling the Christie for. I guess they all need new cars... Marco... The light source in the NC-900 has already had a number of years of field use in another NEC projector that is built on the same chassis as the NC-900. I also know of another European DLP manufacturer that may be introducing a very similar unit. Tell me who's xenon lamp has a 3000 hour warranted life and who's xeon lamp can you change when the projector is running on screen? There are already many instances of small theaters running on just one of the pair of lamps in the 900. So in those cases one can get 6000 hours out of a set of lamps. One can also run part the warranty period with no worries about an exploding lamp. If one of these lamps explodes... so what! Mark  |  IP: Logged Tim OBrien Film Handler Posts: 36 From: Vassar, MI /USA Registered: Jan 2010 posted 08-24-2013 06:54 PM                        Given the advantages of the NC900, as Mark points out, not the least of which is cost, would there be any reasons to consider one of the larger .98 chip models where the screen size is 24' or less?  |  IP: Logged Marco Giustini Film God Posts: 2713 From: Reading, UK Registered: Nov 2007 posted 08-25-2013 04:07 AM                     I understand that the NEC900 is certified DCI when used with both lamps, I guess the colours and the uniformity is not within tolerances when used with only one lamp. I still need to see what happens after 500hrs to the colours; I don't argue that those lamps will have a number of advantages for the owner, but I know how much colours drift using those lamps and I am concerned that we may soon see cinemas with completely off colours after some years of operation. The other NEC projector you mention is not a D-Cinema projector,: colour accuracy is not crucial outside our industry.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 08-25-2013 03:33 PM                     Marco... I have one theater past 800 hours already! No change at all. You are correct about using one lamp. But one lamp will meet DCI color spec as long as you shoot the colors for that given lamp. You can also shoot the colors for the second lamp while you are in there and store that as a seperate renamed file for later application when that lamp is used. There was some talk from NEC about also making a couple of changes in the firmware and DCC to allow one lamp to be used for flat and two for scope alternating the use of that single lamp to age the lamps evenly. I have a coouple of places where flat is a little too bright!  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 08-25-2013 03:36 PM                     Mark, stop with your bogus arguments. FACT, Barco 10SX lumen output with its 2200-watt lamp is near double the NEC NC900 (about 9000 lumens versus about 4500...with variances depending on lens used). Your 30-foot screen claim is with what? a 1.8 gain screen...not DCI compliant because of uniformity...you'll say you curve it (though you didn't say that fact in your post immediately above)...but even then, it won't be DCI compliant because a cylindrical curve will still be dark in the corners...but okay...lets let that all slide because it looks good enough (to some)...put the 10SX on it...it'll STILL be twice as bright so you could skip the 2200 watt lamp and go to a smaller/lower cost lamp...that also lasts 3000-hours. You are not comparing same-same. The maximum width for the NC900C on a Matte White screen (new...still attaining about 1.0 gain) with typical ports and color correction and still having its notch filter)...is going to be about 19.5 feet. Can you remove the notch filter and eek out another 500-lumens...yes but you will not have the color uniformity anymore...you can put the numbers into the ICP and have it "correct" but your uniformity will never be right (its a notch filter, not a broad band color filter). Note, you could do this with any of the projectors and "cheat it." That is a decision that each exhibitor will need to make for themselves. As I've always said, if you did it wrong with film, you'll do it wrong with digital too. One can always justify cheating the performance by claiming it costs less. If the venue only needs 4500 lumens or less, then the NEC900 offers tremendous cost advantages with no proven drawbacks, but it is not for most theatres. The Barco DP2K-10S is nearly a DP2K-12C in lumen output (though it needs a brighter, projector specific lamp to do it). Its costs savings are easy to find...Barco gets a lower cost light engine from TI, omits the DVI inputs (and won't include the HDSDI inputs at no cost), lower cost lenses...etc. There is a reason it is not as dramatically cheaper than the "C" series though it is significantly less. Christie's Solaria 1/1+ is essentially the CP2210 with the .69" chipset inside and the "included"/forced Christie IMB. Again, significantly cheaper than the CP2210 but not as much of a rollback (light wise) as the NC900 is to its next of kin. I'm not advocating one over the other here, just stating the fact of what each brings to the table.  |  IP: Logged Marco Giustini Film God Posts: 2713 From: Reading, UK Registered: Nov 2007 posted 08-25-2013 06:19 PM                     I don't doubt that you have one projector happy at 800 hrs, but I am pretty sure that on the long term and when a bigger number of projectors are on the field it'll be clear that UHP lamps are a mistake. NEC told me that the machine is supposed to run in dual lamp mode to be DCI. I believe it's also written in the manual somewhere, I haven't got it handy right now. I am not saying that it can be run with just one lamp, but that it's another compromise to be taken into consideration. Also, have you ever tried to, say, turn the lamp on at 80%, check the colours, then raise to 100% and check the colours again? Try also to drop it back to 80% and see how much time it takes to go back to the brightness level and colours you measured earlier - if it ever gets back to those levels.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 08-28-2013 09:37 PM                     Steve.... What does it say the 10SX is rated for at this link? 10SX Specs To me the specs says they rate it for a 33 foot wide 1.2 gain screen, I'm thinkin ~35 feet with a 1.4 gain. While the NC-900 isn't the same in terms of Lumens from my experience with it it isn't really very far behind. I have about half of them running on old matte white screens up to ~24 feet wide and roughly the other half on new 1.4 gain screens. It has no problem making light spec it at ~76% lamp level give or take on the old matte surfaces. That leaves plenty of headroom for the lamp to age. I have the one unit running on a 30' wide 1.8 gain screen which is curved and it also has no issues, the lamp level there in scope is at 84%. And fortunately in this location the curve is deep enough for decent light distribution and the projector is dead center of the screen as well plus it is a somewhat narrow auditorium to boot. Their on screen image and ticket sales have improved dramatically, over double the sales actually... what it was the old system... which was pretty awful. Anyway, this is more about using the right projector for the right situation anyway and for most of my situations the NC-900 works above expectations. Yes, the 30 footer is pushing it a bit and we are keeping an eye on the light levels there. That is the one already at 800 hours... and there is zero change. If things go for the worse and if necessary that screen can be masked down a bit in size if needed, or they could change their lamps earlier to maintain screen brightness. For now it's going to be a great indicator of how well these lamps fare over time. By the way... how many NC-900's have you installed? I'm at 14 now with two more going in after the holiday. One more Mid Sept. I have quoted several 10SX's to theaters with 35 foot wide screens but those theaters declined to spend that much money. Because the NC-900 won't work for them it wasn't even brought up and the NC-1200 is a tiny bit more expensive than the 10SX because of the increase in lensing cost. Anyway, one theater has already shut down and is being converted to other use as will the other two soon. The 10SX was simply too much money for them to spend, or try to raise or borrow, or available via X grant. And so far about half of the NC-900 systems I;ve installed have been paid for by donors or grants. The theaters just don't even have that much money in many cases. Mark  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 08-29-2013 01:27 PM                     Mark...what are you adding to the discussion here? Confirming what I had already stated? The 10SX has about 9000 lumens, depending on the lens. The NC900C has about 4500 lumens, depending on the lens...it has about 1/2 as much light...thems the facts. If you have enough light with that, then fine, if not, you need something bigger. As for money...we have theatres raising funds to afford digital too...thus far, it has yet to force one into an undersized projector. You claim about zero change after 800 hours is less than genuine since I've yet to find any lamp that does not change after 800 hours.  |  IP: Logged Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 08-29-2013 01:53 PM                     How does the NC900 compare in lamp Wattage and light output to the NC800C, the only digital projector which I've actually used? The NC800C was putting more light on the screen per Watt than the Kinoton FP-30Ds. Xenon lamps normally have a much lower luminous efficacy than UHP mercury. Metal halide are higher still, but traditionally at the expense of very poor colour stability, but even this has improved somewhat in recent years.  |  IP: Logged

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