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Author Topic: Barco Vs Nec Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 08-29-2013 02:36 PM                     The NC800C is rated slightly above 6000 lumens with the 1.25kW high efficiency lamp. However, these have to be replaced early and are quite expensive. I also believe the 4500 lumen quote for the NC900C is a bit conservative, that is, not peak lumen. I guess it's safe to say NC800 and NC900 are roughly on par in brightness. Only that lamp replacement is less costly on the NC900. - Carsten  |  IP: Logged Marco Giustini Film God Posts: 2713 From: Reading, UK Registered: Nov 2007 posted 08-29-2013 02:44 PM                     Mark, quote: Mark Gulbrandsen Yes, the 30 footer is pushing it a bit and we are keeping an eye on the light levels there. That is the one already at 800 hours... and there is zero change Are you saying that you measured the colours after 800 hours on a NC-900C and measured exactly the same coordinates, that is, 0.314 x 0.351? If that is the case, I would be wrong and the NC900 would be the best projector in term of colour accuracy out there.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 08-29-2013 04:51 PM                     I have not had the pleasure of measuring the NC900C yet but I have measured numerous NECs (NC1200 on up) and NEC has yet to be conservative in their numbers. In fact, I've seen them raise them in literature without actually raising them in the projector. NEC also bases their 9-9.5m screen spec on a 1.8 gain...not DCI compliant and like all others presume zero lamp decay...so even if a lamp makes it at the day it is installed, it will not be in spec in pretty short order. I guess they are counting on also being at the bottom end of the spec. They are all guilty of boasting what the projector can do when a lamp is brand new though.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 08-29-2013 08:41 PM                     I totally agree with your last statement. I hope the laser light people actually get this right! On the NEC-900 the original light specs were published based purely on the design. Once they had measured a few projectors they upped it a bit as they found out the design was pretty conservative. As to the other NEC's I have used so many of them now (189 and counting) that applying the correct projector to the correct job is really very simple. I know what they'll do in real life situations with different screen surfaces... not just based on the spec sheet data. Marco... I am waiting till 1000 lamp hours have gone by to check color again. I measured the light level of this site and it remained unchanged at 800+ hours. That should signify little to no color change as well. I am at a site today that is at 600+ hours with three NC-900 and same thing. No change in light levels. I would expect to see some change at least by 1200 to 1500 hours but we'll see. The largest disadvantage I can see is it would be wise to shoot colors at each lamp replacement because you are also installing new reflectors and heat filters as well. That stuff is gonna change the colors no matter what.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 08-29-2013 11:52 PM                     They upped it 500 lumens (not by saying that...just by saying how big a screen it could work with).  |  IP: Logged Marco Giustini Film God Posts: 2713 From: Reading, UK Registered: Nov 2007 posted 08-30-2013 04:18 PM                     Mark, What do you use to measure light? Won't it measure colours as well? Anyway, no light level change in 800hrs with "feedback" disabled I presume?  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 09-01-2013 05:55 PM                     Marco, I use a Minolta CS-200 meter for color and light levels but I do not always carry it with me, depends on what I go to do at a site... Color gets checked at install and every 6 months after that. or if some major part in the optical path is replaced. I don't want it needlessly bouncing around in the back of the Expedition.. I do however carry a Spectra screen luminance meter all the time that I use for quick light level checks. It's not a big deal if something happens to the Spectra... but it is if the Minolta gets broken. So far I haven't killed either though...  |  IP: Logged Marco Giustini Film God Posts: 2713 From: Reading, UK Registered: Nov 2007 posted 01-30-2014 06:31 PM                     To be fair with Mark, I have measured an NC900 which I calibrated a year ago. I must admit I was impressed when after 735h (only one lamp being used) the colours were still within 0.006. I then switched the lamps (not enough light with lamp 1, so I moved to 2) and - surprisingly - my old calibrations were still correct. You only need to consider that when the power is changed the colours change as well - but you can save a separate calibration for that power level. And all my old calibrations were still ok with the new lamp at different power levels. Now the matter is the reliability.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-30-2014 06:38 PM                     I'm replacing an ICP in one tomorrow in one of the first units I installed. But I can't really blame that failure on NEC because they don't manufacture the ICP. I've also lost one lamp so far. This is out of 25 installed NC-900. Another 6 to 8 still to go in... If you think about it there is no real reason the colors should shift much with lamnp age. Because the inside of these lamps darkens. Perhaps no getter in there. On the other hand it makes perfect sense to have color shift when varying lamp current. Mark  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 01-30-2014 07:06 PM                     If you think about it...a projector that requires different color calibrations for each image is silly. My first NC900C experience was in a special venue theatre that has a 4x3 ratio screen. So each format (and since they will run everything from SD up through DCP) I had about 5 lens presets in there. For each size, requires a different color calibration? Silly. What is worse is that I didn't need both lamps for "scope" since that is the smallest image on a 4x3 screen but needed all of both lamps for 4x3 (largest zoom). There wasn't enough overlap of the lamp range too allow "proper" light levels of all formats either...dual lamp at minimum was too bright and single lamp at maximum was not enough. Even stupider is that they don't have a mechanism (yet) for the projector to alternate lamps when running single lamp to ensure even aging. Basic A/V projectors do this. Perhaps the issue is the color balance between the two lamps is more of an issue than just aging the piss out of one lamp. The other disappointment is that the lens adjustments are not only too course...it never hits its mark twice. Probably not noticed so much in a Flat/Scope theatre...particularly with common width...but in a multiformat one...it is a bit too crude. Contrast ratio is a bit wanting too. I'm hoping that the reported lamp aging thing holds true. I'm curious how fast they age. If one runs a lamp at 100%...will it go the full 3000-hours and retain most of its light?  |  IP: Logged Marco Giustini Film God Posts: 2713 From: Reading, UK Registered: Nov 2007 posted 01-31-2014 03:42 AM                     Mark, UHP lamps are infamous for wildly changing colours, they tend to get reddish over time. It's in the technology, ask any AV enthusiast and they tell you how much they'd like a Xenon or LED projector! Steve, Lens positioning is inaccurate, correct. Takes a while to find a good compromise. I thought they would fix it with software but so far it hasn't been done. Calibrations: yes, a little downside. But the real world is that cinemas are no more capable of replacing lamps properly. Nobody align them - or fail to do so. I'm not happy to say so, but realistically a lamp that does not need alignment is a must for 90% of cinemas these days. This is my European experience, not sure how it works in the US. It looks like a calibration for minimum power gives you consistent colours over time even when changing a lamp, so not a big deal. Don't get me wrong: if it depended on me I would stick on Xenons, but that would require PROJECTIONISTS.  |  IP: Logged Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 01-31-2014 06:15 AM                     Xenon is no longer the optimum choice for theses small panel DLP projectors. The light efficiency get's worse. They had to do something about that. That's how NEC get's so much light out of 700Watt NSH. Also handy for mobile applications where you do not need to take out the lamp for transport. http://www.nec-display-solutions.com/p/download/pr/File/ cp/Internet/Shared/Content/SeeMoreNew/Whitepapers/Downloads/PDF-Whitepaper-NSHLamps-(english).pdf?fn=Whitepaper-NSHLamps-english.pdf http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/assets/files/mkt/digicinema/solutions/4277_Cinema_HPM_LAMP_WhitePaper-pages.pdf That said - the Sony SRX-R515 lamps do not seem to keep brightness too well. At least not our 450Watt type. - Carsten  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-31-2014 02:24 PM                     I completely agree on the lens positioning. It's simply too coarse. But I've always been able to find a good compromise point with them where it's repeatable and accurate. I also don't see that improving either. I believe the coarseness is a function of the stepper motors being used. Marco, I am aware of the color shift issues with AV gear with mercury lamps but I haven't seen that happen yet on this projector. This is not a new lamp design either. It's been around in NEC's larger Board Room type DLP projectors for some time. So it's aready a prooven design. Steve... In a screening room? I hope not a critical one. I'd be the first to say it couldn't do that job correctly and that would be the last projector I'd use for that. The over brightness in flat is not such a big issue in a cinema use. For 22K USD for the basic projector one can't get overly picky about this unit either... It is keeping a lot of theaters open that would have othersise shuttered for good. And they have been reliable... Mark  |  IP: Logged

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