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Author Topic: Color grading suite, advice on upgrade Marco Giustini Film God Posts: 2713 From: Reading, UK Registered: Nov 2007 posted 09-04-2014 02:48 PM                     quote: Carsten Kurz 75% is the lowest, but the lamps will go down early if operated at that setting Do we know that for sure? Again, not arguing, just asking. UHP are not xenon and I am not sure that the same rules apply.  |  IP: Logged Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 09-04-2014 02:52 PM                     Hi Sylvain, as I said, the Solaria one does not have any realtime capable input aside of DVI. I don't think there is a clean way to input/convert P3 from BMD SDI, not within a colour grading application. I think the NEC NC900C, Barco 8Sx and Christie 2210/2215 are your best options. There is a brightness scale in the solaria one brochure: http://www.christiedigital.co.uk/SupportDocs/Anonymous/Christie-Solaria-One-Brochure.pdf As mad as it seems, but there really are not many options to tame an overly bright projector towards such a small screen, and when you're after grading, you simply have to operate within specs. Steve mentioned an 800w bulb for the Barco from Ushio, I think. I don't know if Ushio has a similar offering for Christies. The official specs only go down to 1.4kW for the solaria one and 1.2kW for the Barco, although Barco does offer the DXL-9BAF for most of their machines, including the 10Sx and 8Sx, and with reduced lamp current, the DXL-9BAF should get you within specs. What did Barco Canada offer you? - Carsten  |  IP: Logged Dave Macaulay Film God Posts: 2321 From: Toronto, Canada Registered: Apr 2001 posted 09-04-2014 03:45 PM                     I'm not sure you're comparing the Solaria1 and 8s fairly, the cost should be closer. The Christie come with the dedicated IMS, the Barco can use any series 2 IMB or IMS or use a Barco series 2 SDI input card - with that you would only have the dual SDI input though: however, if you can use SDI exclusively and don't want to play digital cinema encrypted packages, you can delete the ($$) decryption engine and won't require a ($$$) cinema server. I believe the Solaria1 with required NAS external storage is comparably priced to an 8s with Doremi IMS. Christie should come in about 5-10% cheaper but Barco has a few advantages for the extra cost: sealed light engine, no direct exhaust required, multiple lamp suppliers, any S2 IMB or IMS can be used (plus the Doremi and Barco IMS designs use internal storage and no NAS is needed). With either the Doremi or Barco IMS, you have HDMI and dual SDI input: the Christie has dual DVI. All have limitations on alternative content signal resolution and frame rate. I don't believe either has a replaceable aperture to give reduced light output. The 8s will run a 900W lamp, and you can edit the lamp info files to allow "out of spec" operation at lower power with unpredictable effects on lamp life: probably that's possible with a Christie but I'm not sure.  |  IP: Logged Sylvain Cossette Film Handler Posts: 9 From: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Registered: Jun 2014 posted 09-04-2014 04:46 PM                        We are still talking to both Christie (for the Solaria) and Barco (8Sx)as of now. As Dave pointed out, there is numerous options available that we must take into consideration. I was asking about the Chirstie since the lowest lamp available for it is the 1.4KW hence wondering if it would be definatly too bright for the distance/size of the screen.  |  IP: Logged Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 09-04-2014 06:02 PM                     quote: Marco Giustini Do we know that for sure? Again, not arguing, just asking. UHP are not xenon and I am not sure that the same rules apply. Not formally confirmed yet, but both NC900C and Sony 515/510 have a high failure rate with the 330/350W lamps, and it seems to go with low lamp currents. It's also a known issue with presentation and home video UHPs that they don't like to be operated in ECO mode for long periods. Currently, I would try to operate these 330/350W Ushio UHPs well above 80%. The Sony 450W lamps do not seem to have that issue. Of course, as both Sony and NEC replace early failures free of charge, one could just go on running them at 80% until maybe finally the manufacturer and Ushio have sorted this issue out. I have no solid idea how the NC900C running on one lamp at 80% compares to an 8Sx with the 900W bulb at the lowest acceptable current setting. I would assume both having comparable brightness. I did measure the NC900C under these conditions recently, and it would be close to spec at Sylvains quoted screen size. I still think he should go with the Barco, but I have no US/CDN street price comparison. A I said, in germany the price difference between the NC900C and 8Sx, both including the server, is small enough for the 8Sx to win, given it's overall quality. Different question - are there other, cheaper P3/12Bit capable non-DCI compliant projectors available? - Carsten  |  IP: Logged Bill Gabel Film God Posts: 3873 From: Technicolor / Postworks NY, USA Registered: Jan 2002 posted 09-04-2014 07:50 PM                     My DI-2 Theatre is just a little bigger than the room dimensions you gave earlier. We have a NEC NC800c in that room for post-production work screenings. The throw in that room is 21 feet, which gives a 11 foot 1.78/1.85 picture.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 09-05-2014 08:49 PM                     Carsten, It appears that the lamp failures may have been more related to a bad batch of lamps as they failed randomly and at literally any number of hours on them. Sony had the EXACT same issues with the exact same lamp. I had nearly a dozen lamps out of 30 projectors fail over the first year, the majority have never failed and one location is already on it's second set of lamps now, having hit the 3500 hour mark. It also does not seem to be specifically related to running at low current... most of my installs are running at 50% to 2/3 rated level, I have one on a 29' wide screen running at 82% and both those lamps failed at different times. The replacement lamps that have been sent out have been performing just fine and none have failed (yet). Some of those replacements are now quite old from an hour standpoint. This isn't exactly a brand new lamp either. Its been used in other DLP projectors for at least several years before it hit the NC-900's and Sony's. Mark  |  IP: Logged Marco Giustini Film God Posts: 2713 From: Reading, UK Registered: Nov 2007 posted 09-06-2014 04:19 AM                     Thanks Carsten. I remember one of the 515'5 upgrades was supposed to improve lamps reliability with one type of lamps (can't remember which one on top of my head) which led me to believe it had something to do with temperature and I believe I noted the fans acting differently after that upgrade. Somewhere I read that UHP lamps are supposed to run at a very high temperature and keeping them cooler does not help. That's why I thought that maybe running them at a lower power was not necessarily helping. It would be nice for the manufacturer to give us some figures.  |  IP: Logged Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 09-06-2014 06:39 AM                     Yeah - the strange thing is - the 1.21.0 Upgrade mentioned improved stability for 450W lamps - which never caused any problems. Maybe a typo? 'Failure rate improvement of 450W lamp' As far as I know, the problem is not yet solved, as replacement lamps still fail prematurely. A combination of cooling and lamp type + operational current is assumed to cause the issue. There is no clear statement from Sony so far, don't know if NEC ever issued one. But both replace lamps without any questions. Another unknown impact with the Sonys may be the influence of the external exhaust blowers - there are different types with different exhaust performance figures installed - and that may have an impact on the cooling/temperature curve of the bulbs. Well, in the long run, it's USHIOs problem. Yes, there are some lamps that perform to the warranted hours, but the failure rate is still too high. Luckily, this is no big problem as the NC900C has two lamps to choose from and the Sonys 4/6, so it rarely means lost shows, and the replacement procedure is so easy, even the ushers can do it. From what I know now, I would always install the Sony with the 450W lamps - their light efficiency is higher than the 330 (these need more color correction). Means, DCI corrected the brightness difference is more like a 250W to 450W relation. At least for now, they last longer, even if the warranted hours are lower. And if you are still too bright on the 450W, you can use the light blends to reduce it considerably, in addition to modest current reductions. Of course, when you count in some common premature failure, 3000h for the 330W vs. 2000h for the 450W will give you a higher probability that you will be eligible for a free replacement lamp every now and then ;-) - Carsten  |  IP: Logged Marco Giustini Film God Posts: 2713 From: Reading, UK Registered: Nov 2007 posted 09-06-2014 05:35 PM                     Considering that - as you pointed out - you don't lose a show if a lamp explodes and replacing them is dead easy, I'd go for the 330 to have lifetime free replacements! The downside is the colours, the 515 is not as good as the 900 when it comes to maintain the proper colours on screen. I guess that mix and matching new and old lamps won't help.  |  IP: Logged Sylvain Cossette Film Handler Posts: 9 From: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Registered: Jun 2014 posted 09-22-2014 03:38 PM                        Hey everyone, Time to updated our process here. In terms of equipment, we are going with the Barco 8Sx with integrated Doremi IMS1000. Lamp will be a 1.4Kw tune down since the 850Kw isn't available yet.Sound will go thru a Dolby CP750. As for the room ,we decided to take down a wall and combine two of our editing suite to add more volume to our main room (the other one will be relocated). As i am working on the plan, some technical issue i still can't find information on: As i understand, there is no trapezoid adjustment in this projector so it as to be parallel to the screen. Lens shift can be use to move the image. Now, on a 260" (~22') distance using the 1.2-1.7 lens, what is the maximum vertical shift? As of now, i have 8" difference between the lens and the middle of the screen.  |  IP: Logged Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 10-13-2014 08:16 AM                     Hi Sylvain, good decision to go with the 8Sx and Doremi IMS and CP750. These are quite standard pieces of hardware and will be a good starting point for DCP qualification/testing. I always consider it important that grading suites and DCP mastering studios are familiar with real cinema gear. Very often I am puzzled that staff there has no idea about the playback systems they create content for. Some people here do not like the Doremi IMS, but I think for a grading suite you will be okay with it, you don't need the connection flexibility of a full external server. Lens shift will not be a problem under these conditions. Good to use the 8kW lamp once it is available. - Carsten  |  IP: Logged Dave Macaulay Film God Posts: 2321 From: Toronto, Canada Registered: Apr 2001 posted 10-13-2014 11:20 AM                     Using lens shift to 8" on screen should be no problem. The Barco "S" projectors have less lens shift than "C" or "B" models... but still a fair bit. I don't know the actual image percentage available without doing more searching than I have time for. I believe there is some scaling available in the projector for keystone correction but I have rarel used scaling. It's not generally used in cinemas. You do get some staircasing if you use scaling.  |  IP: Logged Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 10-13-2014 12:24 PM                     The S2k have less shift range than 0.98 and 1.2/1.38, but still a lot more in the vertical direction than in the horizontal direction. I was puzzled recently to find a datasheet for the NC900 with accompanying lenses which quotes only 0.11 H-shift factor: http://www.nec-pj.com/cat_data/pj/WDPJ-1307-583NN.pdf Fortunately, it is a bit more than that in real life, but still less than I used to find on higher class projectors. Drove me into trouble installing an NC900C only 1,30m off the screen center over a 10m distance. 8" V-Shift over that distance is indeed no problem. Does Barco quote real life shift levels for their lens/projector combos? There are some numbers in installation manuals, but they seem to be common max figures accross all available lenses and machines. - Carsten  |  IP: Logged

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