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Author Topic: JSD 60D crossover Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 01-24-2015 09:17 AM                     Marco, I certainly won't speak up for Behringers product reliability here, as I have my own fair share bit of experience with them, but you can find singled out experiences like yours for every manufacturer. I know a lot of cinemas and PA service companies using these devices for years without issues. They have been introduced in 2005 - that is ages ago considering common digital audio device life cycles. And I can tell you they still sell like mad. If the budget is there for higher-class gear, of course, go with it. As Steve pointed out - Crossovers are not sexy. Clients love their servers, projectors, CPs, their huge speakers. But a 1HE unit with a cryptic name he is never to touch himself - it's not easy to make him pay multiple times the price of a Behringer. When people choose a CP750 over a USL or datasat or QSC because of the cost, you won't suggest crossovers that cost more than a CP750. - Carsten  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-24-2015 01:03 PM                     In 99% of my installations bypass wouldn't be used anyway, so having it is really insignificant. Running a show in bypass is doing your customers a dis-service in a very rude way. No one wants to listen to the sound with no EQ, etc. With a JSD-60 or 100 I would rather have an entire separate back up processor in a large facility. Then you might loose what... one show while the processor is being swapped out and the backup settings are loaded in... And no one makes multi gang faders any more excepting the audiophile people. And those in six gang type (DACT) are going to cost you nearly as much as another JSD-60! The main thing to remember is to install processors that don't break down. And Harold's stuff fits that catagory. Mark  |  IP: Logged Marco Giustini Film God Posts: 2713 From: Reading, UK Registered: Nov 2007 posted 01-24-2015 01:16 PM                     Carsten, Sure, but my own DCX2496 was replaced by Behringer with another one with which came with a broken wheel(they sent another one, it happened when Behringer had that nice advanced replacement scheme in place) When I contacted Behringer to replace the other two, they were rude and unhelpful and the "repair" took months. Hence no, I can't trust them. If I'm selling a JSD60 to a customer who is trying to save money, I'd recommend the JSD card. If a Datasat, well it comes with a crossover. Same with QSC - if you want to call them crossovers, but that's another story. If the customer wants to go with a 750 and a DCX I woulds stress that all our DCX have broken down and service is awful. On a bi-amp I would not recommend a 750 in the first place. Then it's their call of course.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 01-25-2015 12:02 AM                     Hmm...I've never had a problem with specifying whatever crossover system I thought was appropriate for the system going in. We use CP750s on all sorts of systems from passive to quad-amped. The crossovers have been analog (e.g. the XC-3 on the amplifier), DSP based (like the offerings from Rane or QSC) or possibly in the booth monitor (but those are more rare for us having to do with the said monitor/crossovers). I just don't see the problem. Having a backup system in place at the theatre does make sense. Mark does make a valid point about having a spare processor. Depending on the size of the complex...having a spare of whatever your sound processor is would probably be cheaper than having backup systems in EVERY processor, just in case. Using the CP750 as an example...we supply a back up power supply for the COMPLEX since it is just a plug-in on a 4-pin XLR. I think of all of the units we have installed, it has only ever been put on line once. Cloning the current generation of sound processors is so easy that putting a spare on line and having it be a 100% replacement probably is a better choice, over all. The exception I would make is if the unit fails mid-show...nothing is suckier than having a seated audience not be able to see their show to completion. Being able to quickly get sound up and going in some fashion will please more people than telling them "sorry."  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-26-2015 02:17 PM                     The problem with having a backup in a small complex is that no one would know or remember how to use it. USL's are so dang reliable that you are a dozen or fifteen or more crews down the line from the original crew you trained by the time you may need it. And in the case of processors who's power supplies are going to head south on you the little plug in wall wort isn't going to be capable of powering up very much decent circuitry. And it too may have long since fried by the time you need it. Steve's idea of a D to A with multi gang fader and appropriate connectors could well save a weekend on a screen some place. But even that is a fairly big expenditure. I did find a really nice 6 gang fader that can be bought from Poland. I ordered a two channel balanced version for my line stage yesterday. These things are really first class. http://www.khozmo.com/products_dale_shunt.html Mark  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 01-26-2015 04:18 PM                     Those look to be "Daven pots" rather than a continuous pot. That is you are switching resistors in/out. I believe potstacking is still an option from various companies.  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-26-2015 07:08 PM                     I believe you can still get a "modPot"  |  IP: Logged Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 01-27-2015 07:13 AM                     Most trimmers are built to be stacked. Of course, the ganging is not perfect, but this is for a backup solution. It's also easy to mount cheap sliderpots next to each other and connect them with a sync-bar so they operate all simultaneously. Of course, for all these solutions you need cascaded trimmers for the individual channel level adjustment. But they can be set and forget after initial aligment. I would try to not change the amp volumes during the backup operation, although of course if you mark settings or have your own SPL meater, it's no big deal to correct levels after the CP has been put back in. Besides that, Doremis have their own digital volume control server-side, so, for a while, one could live without a common volume control. One could also use a cheap analog mixer if available. The important thing is to HAVE the backup readily available and not start setting circuits and cables up once the CP failed. - Carsten  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-28-2015 10:03 AM                     It's a very high quality stepped attenuator. 64 positions and all gold contacts. Mod pots are stackable but they area absolute crap! Of all the pots in all the test gear I own the Mod Pots cause the most headache. Plus, any pot that uses plastic conductive surfaces is junk and will degrade the analog signal flowing through it. Mark  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 01-29-2015 06:43 AM                     We are talking about a backup system...right?  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-30-2015 05:57 PM                     Yes! Plugs could be fitted to both cables on the 6 channel stepped attenuator and it could plug things right back together bypassing the processor. All old tube systems used stepped attenuators. Daven and others also used to make them. The one at the link above is just a much higher quality version of a Daven stepped attenuator. It's what you would find in a $6,000.00 line stage. It's also built to last and never require cleaning. I have some old single and three stack Davens here and they are only 21 steps and they sound like crap. Most just used carbon resistors. quote: Carsten Kurz When people choose a CP750 over a USL Actually a JSD-100 costs more then a CP-750. And it's a little extra money very well spent. JSD-60 and CP-750 are I believe in a par price wise. Mark  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 01-31-2015 07:24 AM                     It all depends on the "deal" you get in this industry as to what is the price of the product. Left to their own devices...the JSD60 would be the lowest cost, then the CP750 then the JSD100. That said, very little entices me to the JSD line over the CP750 for a "typical" theatre. I think the JSD60 hit the mark better than the JSD100 in terms of bang for the buck and flexibility. And it is all done in 1U of space. If you want to play DCPs, the CP750 does everything you need. The CP750 even has 8-channels worth of analog input...something that the CP850 doesn't even have. What big features of the JSD100 do you think make it worth the extra money? Personally, I don't like consuming "buttons" to merely change a decode mode when a simple command can do it on the same button. "Digital 1" is DCinema, regardless of the sound decoding format (5.1, 7.1, Pro-Logic...etc). Like so many things, the CP750 isn't perfect but it does have a very good balance of features to cost and performance. It sounds good too and "plays well" with automations.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-01-2015 05:34 PM                     Good grief! For starters the dac chips used in the 750 are vastly inferior. They are old hat. It is a very old design. I saw the first 750's over 8 years ago at the Megaplex District location when I worked for Claco. Dolby is very slow to introduce new designs. They must be too busy buying up other companies that have better ideas than they do. OMG! I thought I'd pass out when they introduced the CP-850! It's something THEY actually designed... Or did they? And again they are having widespread power supply failures with the 750's. This has become a "Dolby tradition". Poor customer support (not technical support). USL has the best support in the industry probably because they have very few problems. GDC would be second best. QSC, Rane, even Crown all have top notch customer support. I'd have to place Dolby's support right about at the bottom of the barrel, but they are great IF you by chance get the right person at the other end of the phone. Or if your problem is listed in their failure database. If your customer calls there oh good grief! I'll stick with the companies that have worked best for my customers over the last couple decades or more, often at the request of them. Unfortunately, that typically has not been Dolby. But if they work fine for you then that's good Steve, continue on. P.S. Watch for the DSS-200 to completely disappear when the current stock of build parts is all used up. Obviously building and selling Doremi's has a better profit margin or they wouldn't be doing it. Mark  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 02-01-2015 06:19 PM                     Mark...sonically, the JSD60 just doesn't stand up to the CP750...I've yet to hear it compare favorably. The CP750 is a good piece. Of rather large quantity of CP750s we have out there...we've had one power supply die (infant mortality). I have heard that they can run hot and die if you sandwich them in a rack and don't leave 1U above/below (particularly above). As for customer support...Dolby got a theatre up and going for us when another server company was going to leave a theatre 100% down on a holiday weekend. So while you may feel that Dolby is towards the bottom...I can definitely show you a worse company. Honestly though, I've never had a problem getting problems addressed pretty quickly, 7-days a week. Right now, I'd say that Barco is at the top of my list for 24/7 support (including same day 7-day availability on parts). They clearly haven't always had such a reputation but in DCinema, they are up there now. As for the DSS200...um...you are spouting your ignorance. For the record, the DSS200 (in the USA for sure) has already sold all of its stock and they are STILL making them to order. So try talking about what you know rather than what you think. Mind you, I'm not trying to pick on the JSD60 (or even the 100) but don't try to tell me they are inherently better than the CP750. They each have their ups and downs but the CP750 has a lot right with it. The JSD60, in my opinion, is a better designed unit than the JSD100 given all that it does and the size they are doing it. Then again, it was designed later, wasn't it? One gets to learn as they go and possibly have more options in semis in later units. The CP850 certainly has some glaring omissions. I don't know of anyone that has one that doesn't have Atmos...Dolby has just issued the upgradable CP850...to what market...I don't know.  |  IP: Logged Marco Giustini Film God Posts: 2713 From: Reading, UK Registered: Nov 2007 posted 02-02-2015 04:34 AM                     I second Steve on 750's sound quality and reliability. I'd rather install something more flexible but the 750 does work and its sound quality is top notch.  |  IP: Logged

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