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Topic: Digital IMAX LFE?

Marcel Birgelen
Film God

Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012

posted 03-19-2015 03:42 AM

That... or if you really want to see it on a massive screen, at least choose a theater with 4K projection capabilities and preferably a 4K release too.

But there aren't that many movies shot with massive screens in mind anyway.

Interestingly though, during the few digital IMAX presentations I've seen, people behaved exactly like they did during regular shows: The back third of the room always filled first...

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 03-19-2015 10:02 AM

That's because people are more about comfort than they are about the size of the image. (It's probably the biggest reason why so many stay home and watch TV.)

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 03-19-2015 10:40 AM

quote: Marcel Birgelen
Yeah, at those insane magnification levels, you will always be able to make out individual pixels. Even 4K will not be sufficient to make it go away in my opinion.

That's okay. They'll just dial the projectors far enough out of focus to make the pixel grid disappear. Can't be any problem with that given the tendency of audience members to gravitate to the highest yet farthest back rows in stadium seated auditoriums.

quote: Mike Blakesley
Just avoid the gargantuan screens and stick to auditoriums with normal sized screens. You'll save money and avoid massive pixels.

With a purely film-based movie production the concept of DPI (dots per inch) was never much of an issue. If someone projected a 35mm film image on too large a screen the biggest problems he would encounter is imagery that wasn't bright enough and if the projector had any kind of issues with steadiness any picture movement would be amplified on the bigger screen.

Digital on really big screens sadly translates to big blurry imagery or noticeably jaggy imagery if the operator really wanted to properly focus the image. On top of jaggy imagery there's a risk of the pixel grid pattern clashing with the perf dot pattern on the screen, delivering moiré effects.

Compound this problem with all the video-based production and digital-based post production now dominating how movies are made. All sorts of softening takes place at various stages. Just add some subtle blur effects to make the 40-something actress still look 20-something. Throw in some noise filters to imitate grain to fake like the picture is still in focus. Color? We'll bleed away all the natural saturation in the native video camera image, apply some film look filters to what's almost a grayscale image now and to finish it off we'll add a David Fincher inspired urine colored wash to the whole thing.

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Martin Brooks
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 900
From: Forest Hills, NY, USA
Registered: May 2002

posted 03-19-2015 04:47 PM

I saw Interstellar in 70mm IMAX at the Loews Lincoln Square IMAX and I saw Gravity in digital IMAX at the same theatre and both presentations were fine, including LF response (unless you're looking for LFE levels sufficient to make you lose your bowels).

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Terry Lynn-Stevens
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1081
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Dec 2012

posted 03-19-2015 05:50 PM

Most people tend to gravitate to the rear of an auditorium,, that happens in both IMAX GT theaters, as well as MPX theaters or just regular theaters (including Atmos). Most will try to sit dead-center if possible. I have never met one person ever who has mentioned to me that they can see visible pixels on a screen in any digital format ever released. Most would have no idea what we talk about on this board and I don't think they would care either. I have also never met one person who mentioned to me that IMAX Digital uses a dual projection system.

quote: Martin Brooks
I saw Interstellar in 70mm IMAX at the Loews Lincoln Square IMAX and I saw Gravity in digital IMAX at the same theatre and both presentations were fine, including LF response

I don't think the average customer really cares. They seem to enjoy paying the premium for what they get either in IMAX Digital (Xenon and Laser) or IMAX film. You would think that the switch to IMAX Digital would of turned off enough people to seriously damage the financials for all players involved with IMAX. Yet the cinema chains continue to open new IMAX screens and people for the most part continue to pay for the The IMAX Experience. The studios also continue to partner with IMAX which likely indicates that the studios see value in the IMAX product, and I am sure with all the loyalty programs, the large chains (and most likely the studios) have a good idea if people are going out of their way to watch a movie in IMAX. Perhaps they even know if people are seeking out SR/GT IMAX locations such Tinseltown IMAX or Scotiabank and thus skipping the MPX locations that a lot of people do not like.

What simply amazes me is how much discussion IMAX continues to generate on this forum (more negative than positive) and in the mainstream press. There have been many members that have predicted that IMAX would not be around at this point ever since the switch to IMAX Digital occurred. I don't think they are going disappear anytime soon but IMO, I think Greg Foster needs to keep his mouth shut and perhaps hire a professional PR person.

IMAX knows full well that watching an IMAX movie in IMAX Digital is not the same as watching a movie in 15/70. But is watching a Dolby Atmos movie on a cell phone or tablet branded any differently than Dolby Atmos in a cinema? [Moon]

The last 15/70 release of Interstellar was sensational, I was a bit surprised myself that IMAX reconverted some locations to be able to play the movie in 15/70 for 4-5 weeks, we were lucky enough to have two locations open the movie in 15/70 within 15 minutes driving distance, I saw it numerous times in 15/70 at each of the locations and I sure hope we continue to get a few releases in 15/70 in the near future, and I am crossing my fingers that the new Star Wars will get a release in the format.

I always thought that the new IMAX laser configuration that is now available at the Scotiabank in Toronto would of been branded as something different than just IMAX, I was wrong. From what I have seen, its pretty good and the new sound system does not appear to be as loud as the 6-track system. I was also surprised to see the Dolby 3D logo on the glasses.

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 03-19-2015 06:01 PM

quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens
Most people tend to gravitate to the rear of an auditorium,, that happens in both IMAX GT theaters, as well as MPX theaters or just regular theaters (including Atmos).

I think it's got less to do with sound and whatnot, and more to do with comfort. People are most comfortable looking at a screen when they're more at eye level with it, which you will get in the back of a flat auditorium or the center of a stadium auditorium.

When it comes to horizontal positioning, then that's where the sound comes in. I hate sitting at the extreme right or left, no matter how far back I am because of what it does to the stereo effect.

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Aron Toplitsky
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 113
From: Gardena, CA, USA
Registered: May 2012

posted 03-20-2015 06:46 AM

quote:
Marcel Birgelen

What I do know from people that actually work at an IMAX Digital location is that they DO get much more complaints about volume from their IMAX presentation than from their regular presentations. They have turned down the volume for certain features (and they probably also have forgotten to turn it back to reference afterwards).

The volume was definitely quite loud during certain scenes. I'd say the level wasn't adjusted and sounded like reference level to me.

quote:
Martin Brooks

I saw Interstellar in 70mm IMAX at the Loews Lincoln Square IMAX and I saw Gravity in digital IMAX at the same theatre and both presentations were fine, including LF response (unless you're looking for LFE levels sufficient to make you lose your bowels).

Well I'm glad Sony Lincoln Sq is sounding good these days. I haven't seen a film there since 2009. Don't know how true this is, but an insider once told me they "blow woofers all the time" and is why that theater tends to lack in low end. I did see Interstellar twice at two different 15/70 locations in the Los Angeles area and both were fantastic! No complaints.

Well it's been two weeks since I sent an email to the AMC manager and I haven't heard back. Going to try the next step and that is to contact IMAX. It would be great if I could somehow pass this along to the CEO.

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Marcel Birgelen
Film God

Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012

posted 03-20-2015 06:59 AM

quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens
I have never met one person ever who has mentioned to me that they can see visible pixels on a screen in any digital format ever released.

I guess about everybody in this forum doesn't count then. But you also haven't met yourself I guess? Because if you cannot see pixels, where are you looking at exactly?

If you're sufficiently close to the screen, you can easily spot individual pixels at any 2K presentation you go to without a completely unwatchable, out of focus picture. And no, I'm not saying you need to be with your face in the screen, in many auditoriums sitting in the front third of the auditorium is sufficient. Individual pixels are usually easiest to spot around sharp edges. Stuff like subtitles, credits, etc. suffers the most from this phenomenon.

The few Digital IMAX presentations I attended, I was sitting dead center of the room, yet the pixels were VERY evident.

quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens
I don't think the average customer really cares. They seem to enjoy paying the premium for what they get either in IMAX Digital (Xenon and Laser) or IMAX film.

Yeah, because... Everything is awesome!

quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens
But is watching a Dolby Atmos movie on a cell phone or tablet branded any differently than Dolby Atmos in a cinema?

Repeat after me: Dolby Atmos is a format, not a presentation standard.

You can have Dolby Atmos installed in your toilet seat. You shouldn't be able to have IMAX installed in it.

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Terry Lynn-Stevens
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1081
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Dec 2012

posted 03-20-2015 10:19 AM

quote: Aron Toplitsky
Well it's been two weeks since I sent an email to the AMC manager and I haven't heard back. Going to try the next step and that is to contact IMAX. It would be great if I could somehow pass this along to the CEO.

Why even bother? Why don't you just not go back?

quote: Mike Blakesley
I think it's got less to do with sound and whatnot, and more to do with comfort. People are most comfortable looking at a screen when they're more at eye level with it, which you will get in the back of a flat auditorium or the center of a stadium auditorium.

I agree, but people have been conditioned to want to sit in the back half of the theater. There are some that like to sit in the last row no matter what and then there are some that will actively sit dead center or somewhere near there. I think some are sitting there for the surround effect but maybe one of every twenty really care. At your theater? What is the usual pattern for folks choosing their seats?

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 03-20-2015 12:52 PM

It's not "conditioning." It's where they feel the most comfortable or where they get the experience they want.

Our place is just like any other. Kids go to the front rows, adults generally from the mid-point to the back.

We have a balcony but we don't let kids up there, so a lot of adults head up there -- but when they see that it's farther from the screen, some of them come back down. I haven't watched a movie from our balcony in at least 30 years because I like to be closer to the screen. But some like the angle of view from the balcony so they prefer to sit there.

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Martin Brooks
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 900
From: Forest Hills, NY, USA
Registered: May 2002

posted 03-29-2015 01:33 PM

It's not that people don't care. It's that they can't necessarily tell when something is wrong or sub-optimal. If there isn't a good LF response, how does the average movie goer know that this isn't simply the way the theatre sounds all the time? If we're not hearing anything out of the surrounds or if the tweeters are blown in some surrounds, how do we know that the film isn't mixed that way?

Also, most consumers have heard nothing but bad sound for years, whether in theaters, music shows or their own headsets and MP3 players. I don't even think most of today's musicians and live sound engineers truly know what good sound sounds like. All anyone does today is blast the levels to brain melting levels and then make it even louder as the show progresses.

A few years back, I had been to several theatres in NYC where the channel configuration was wrong. The center channel was coming out of the left speaker. I complained and the theatre manager gave me the usual "no one has complained" or "it's supposed to be that way" line. I brought him into the theatre and made him listen. I figure the same tech did both theatres and mixed up wire colors or just lazily plugged speaker cables into amps. Or maybe it was just a coincidence.

The strange thing to me is that people love to complain (just check anywhere on the web). But for some strange reason, people don't generally complain in movie theaters (aside from the idiot complaints posted elsewhere here). I went to a theater a few months back in which the image was completely misframed on the screen and it was quite obvious, but I was the only one who complained (and they did fix it right away).

This is nothing new. I've been complaining for decades. But just because people don't complain doesn't mean they enjoyed the experience and whether they realize that consciously or subconsciously, they might go to a theater less as a result. I know I attend less because I almost never get that "OMG, this sounds so great" feeling that I frequently got back in the 70mm 6-track days.

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 03-29-2015 02:28 PM

My theory is, people don't generally complain in movie theaters because oftentimes they know there's something wrong, but they don't know what it is, and don't want to sound like an idiot by making a complaint and then not having the employee know what they mean or having the employee say "it seems fine to me." Or maybe they realize something's not "normal" but nothing else appears out of order so they just figure that's the way it's supposed to be.

Whereas if something more obvious happens, like if the sound cuts out, then they can find a manager and say "There is no sound in the theater" and know they can expect a response.

I dunno, that's just my theory. But I can say that since I started working here in 1976 I've never had one person come up and say "There's something wrong, I can't really describe it, but could you take a look?" Every complainer always has a specific complaint to describe.

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Marcel Birgelen
Film God

Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012

posted 03-29-2015 05:35 PM

In addition to that, it's also often VERY hard to get your point across, even if you know what you're talking about. Ever tried to explain something seemingly simple a missing audio channel (other than the center channel) to the average theater manager on charge?

Also, keep in mind that most people actually want to watch the movie they bought their tickets for. If you get up and complain, you might miss several minutes of it and the result is often questionable and nobody is going to rewind it for you (even though with DCI presentations this is perfectly possible). Once the movie is done, people usually don't want to invest the time to notify staff about any problems.

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William Kucharski
Expert Film Handler

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From: Louisville, Colorado, United States of America
Registered: Oct 2012

posted 04-21-2015 06:56 PM

Could also just be the theater.

My local AMC's ETX used to have stomach trembling LFE, but now when you go in it's virtually non-existent.

I was able to corner the manager one day, and she gave me the reason - too many complaints from patrons in adjacent auditoriums, so they turned it way, way down from what the ETX auditorium was originally calibrated to by corporate.

She also mentioned that they turn the overall system volume down a good 5 dB when playing kids' films and often forget to turn it back up when running an action film later in the evening.

Re trying to get your point across, the most unique situation I finally had to drag the manager into the auditorium to experience was something went wrong where every channel was "off by one" - center was coming out of left, right was coming from center, right side surround from right, etc.

They rebooted the system (ten minute delay) and all was good.

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