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Author Topic: laser phosphor projector vs xenon Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 06-07-2017 08:20 PM                     I've had quite a few lamps hit the warranty mark and the customers get pretty disappointed when that happens because then they have to buy the replacement, even a few of the original lamps did that some how. Why NEC did not just go straight to the 450 watt lamps that are in the NC-1000 to begin with is beyond me. Mark  |  IP: Logged Anders Nordentoft-Madsen Film Handler Posts: 57 From: Valby, Denmark Registered: Aug 2005 posted 06-08-2017 09:32 AM                        Barco BPL projectors are NOT compaible with Dolby 3D (it's not supported). Barco 6P Laser is an entirely different beast, best 3D I have ever seen, but yes, both projector and glasses are expensive.  |  IP: Logged Marco Giustini Film God Posts: 2713 From: Reading, UK Registered: Nov 2007 posted 06-08-2017 02:35 PM                     quote: Steve Guttag With respect to other image parts, laser-phosphor offer zero advantage. The contrast doesn't improve, no resolution benefits...etc. With RGB laser, then you get contrast improvements, color space improvements with a side of speckle. At a demo Barco claimed that they managed to slightly improved the contrast ratio of the phosphor machines. Nothing huge, I believe it was 2500:1. Does your experience say otherwise?  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 06-08-2017 05:14 PM                     I have not seen nor even heard the claim. 2500 would be 25%, which would be substantial. Contrast isn't lost at the light source. So I would think it is a bogus claim. Barco is heavily invested in LP laser so they will try anything to sell it.  |  IP: Logged Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 06-08-2017 06:30 PM                     Barco has 2400:1 in the CLP and BLP specs. How much that is in practice compared to otherwise identical Xenon machines remains to be seen. I guess it is rather easy to bump the contrast a bit like that by established measures and sacrificing some light output. I also guess once they advertise their systems with the 'laser' buzzword, they also need to show off at least *some* improvement in contrast, given all the HDR/high contrast hype. At least now Barco has worked out a laser light output warranty. - Carsten  |  IP: Logged Marco Giustini Film God Posts: 2713 From: Reading, UK Registered: Nov 2007 posted 06-08-2017 06:35 PM                     I'm wondering if they sacrificed a little light in order to get some better contrast?  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 06-09-2017 06:47 AM                     I see in their literature that for the "C" series it is "up to 2400:1." The "B" series is listed as 2400:1. Whatever they are doing it isn't inherent in the LP technology. As for the 10-year thing, as I understand it, they get to pick your projector and they get to remote in and control it and you pay for it. Well yeah, I can pick a laser system and sell you a warranty up to 10-years that will ensure you light output makes it too, even without a Barco brand projector. It is still cheaper to run xenon, at the moment.  |  IP: Logged Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 06-09-2017 08:51 AM                     We're on Barco and Sony UHP. I couldn't care less for LP. I would love to see the full-white spektrum of LP. A tiny blue laser line, and yellow and red phosphor? Even worse than early LED white light. I can hardly imagine this is comparable to xenon or modern UHP. - Carsten  |  IP: Logged Alan Gouger Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 501 From: Bradenton, FL, USA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 06-09-2017 10:05 AM                        Ive yet to see a nice green from any laser technology they lean to lime green. A deeper green might cost light and heat during the modulation process. Luckily its hard to detect when screening a film.  |  IP: Logged Harold Hallikainen Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 906 From: Denver, CO, USA Registered: Aug 2009 posted 06-09-2017 12:30 PM                        Here are my notes on laser projector color after a discussion with their laser guru: The laser projector attempts to duplicate the "broad band experience" of color. If, for example, we see a color of red at 650nm, our eyes, using XYZ filters, would have a substantial amount of output on the X and the Y filter. The laser projector with red lasers at 638nm and 658nm would be missing the Y component, so some green is added in to give the same XYZ. Monochromatic green at 550nm would have mostly Y and very little X or Z. However, a wide band green would have some X and Z, so they run the red and blue lasers to give the proper XYZ. These are my notes after a telephone conversation, so they are not a direct quote. Harold  |  IP: Logged Bill Brandenstein Master Film Handler Posts: 413 From: Santa Clarita, CA Registered: Jul 2013 posted 06-09-2017 02:12 PM                     That, in my quite possibly ill-informed opinion, isn't "broad spectrum" but dilution. Even though it may look "natural" and less intense to the eye, this is like turning down the color knob on an old TV set, it's simply desaturation. "Broad spectrum" means needing multiple laser wavelengths in the region of each color, not washing out pure colors with the other primaries. Would anyone care to comment on the following statement: RGB (non-phosphor) laser projection is to digital projection what Technicolor was to film.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 06-09-2017 07:36 PM                     I would tend to disagree with that statement. Digital projection, by nature, depends on the purest Red Green and Blue light and that has nothing to do with laser. The more precisely they hit their wavelengths, the more precisely the projector can hit its color. But if you skew the triangle a the start, you are going to forever be trying to compensate. Conversely, the more sloppy you are on your wavelengths, the more sloppy the color is going to be over all. You can only be as precise as your source color(s).  |  IP: Logged Harold Hallikainen Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 906 From: Denver, CO, USA Registered: Aug 2009 posted 06-09-2017 08:59 PM                        Since the eye has XYZ sensors, it'd be great if we could excite them individually to produce whatever can be perceived. However, there are no wavelengths that would exclusively excite the X, Y, or Z sensors. My thoughts on color perception (with some other stuff) is at http://ftp.uslinc.com/ftp/Products/LSS-100P/Documents/Technical/ColorMeasurement/ColorMeasurment%20LSS_160525.pdf . Harold  |  IP: Logged Marco Giustini Film God Posts: 2713 From: Reading, UK Registered: Nov 2007 posted 06-10-2017 04:18 AM                     Very interesting Harold, thanks  |  IP: Logged Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 06-10-2017 09:03 AM                     All the color science that deals with human perception from the recent century was done with broader spectrum light sources. And all was based on 'human' samples. We can't measure the human eye and color perception. We can only make statistical observations of sensory stimulus. I don't think we have enough science on narrow spectra color perception yet. At least it seems that the color science/transformations that is built into current projectors is not capable of dealing with this properly. Keep in mind that all this market is currently dominated by more or less only two or three different manufacturers with their specific DCI cinema processor IP. This is not something that get's revolutionized every few weeks, it's quite static. I think that is the reason why some people are concerned about the visual/perceptional quality of current laser projectors. Also, people tend to think that 'clean', narrow sources make color science 'easier', 'straighter'. I don't think that is the case, as our eyes never had to deal with laser or very narrow band light during their evolution. Also, it is rather easy nowadays to build filters for every wavelength and nearly every passband characteristic to adopt white light/broad spectrum sources. Laser wavelengths to date can not be chosen arbitrarily, not with projection and all it's implications in mind. Then comes 6p and the need to choose suitable PAIRS of critical wavelengths. Speckle reduction, some of which is based on spectrum spreading or modulation. Not easy. That said, a Barco 6P delivers a hell of a snappy and overall impressing 3D picture already (at least if a silver screen is avoided - which exhibits far too much speckle). It just appears a bit too expensive given the fact that probably only the second or third generation will get the remaining bits and pieces togehther to justify the price and effort. - Carsten  |  IP: Logged

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