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This topic comprises 4 pages: 1 2 3 4
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Author
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Topic: Samsung's "No Projector" Cinema Screen
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Daniel Schulz
Master Film Handler
Posts: 387
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2003
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posted 07-16-2017 11:34 AM
quote: Steve Guttag
I still maintain that what theatres should work together on is pushing that release window out to a year, particularly on A-list movies such that the home doesn't have access for, at least, 1-year.
If it is just technology, the home has eclipsed most cinemas a long time ago. Sound wise, there are many other choices and the person can pick what suits their hearing tastes best. Picture wise, 4K in the home isn't even "special" anymore, it is standard. The Cinema continues to be stuck at 2K with mostly miserable 4K options (low contrast, or speckle, VERY high costs).
It just doesn't cost the homeowner all that much to set up a reasonably impressive home-theatre with technology that stands pretty close to professional and, in many cases, better.
I pretty much agree with this, although it should be noted that even 2K DCI projection has some advantages over what is seen in home theater in terms of color space, compression technologies used and bitrate. Obviously those things will improve on the home side as well, but digital cinema projection is still superior to even UHD Blu Ray.
More importantly, cinema always has the advantage in screen size and available decibel levels. Yes, sitting 8 feet away from a 70" flat screen is impressive, but it still doesn't compare to a 40-foot wide screen. And virtually no home theaters are equipped (and soundproofed) to play back at anything approaching true cinema reference levels.
Definitely agree on the release window, and I will continue to argue that cinemas should pay much more attention to the things that truly set them apart from home theatre, such as 'scope screens with proper masking. Hell bringing back curtains could serve as a nice reminder that you're seeing something really special.
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 07-16-2017 07:30 PM
I always figured direct view LEDs would someday compete with projectors for showing movies in commercial theaters. Years ago I figured the day would come many years in the future, but the technology appears to be improving much more rapidly.
My primary concerns with "jumbrotron" style screens has been color quality, maintenance and cost per pixel. The cost has been coming down as the technology continues to scale in production. Our sign company is continuing to sell ever better LED signs to businesses because the cost per pixel continues to fall and the displays are getting more durable and easier/cheaper to maintain. The color quality of these displays has improved dramatically. In the early 2000's LED signs were pretty garish looking. Shadow and highlight detail would almost always be crushed or blown-out. New displays look so much better. And you have the full RGB spectrum to use, not a reduced gamma range like REC 709 or REC 2020.
quote: Neil Brimelow
I'm just curious if anyone has found out the price on this new Samsung Cinematic Abomination?
I'm certain that demo unit from Samsung is probably prohibitively expensive for mainstream theaters. As noted previously, I think LED display manufacturers need to come up with something different than a thick plastic and metal box to mount in front of the seats.
But I'll tell you something that's an abomination: very poor projector to screen geometry. Last night my girlfriend and I watched Baby Driver at the local AMC/former Carmike Patriot 13 theater. I sensed something was wrong with the image, especially during the opening title sequence. The framing seemed like it was really a bit off kilter. Then the end title credit run started and it was all too clear. The keystone alignment from the projector to the screen wasn't for shit. It was absolutely awful. A bunch of the credits on the left margin were getting clipped.
One huge advantage with a LED-based display: PERFECT freaking screen geometry. No need for damned keystone correction, whether it's optical-based (better) or digital (just plain awful). The picture will be in perfect focus 100% of the time.
But, it will seem like a TV screen. IMHO, d-cinema already feels like a TV screen anyway. So what the hell is the difference? If the purchase price point and total cost of ownership gets down to a manageable level, I'm all for swapping out the projectors for LED-based displays. However, they really have to figure out some way to allow sound to project through the screen. That's an absolute must.
quote: Steve Guttag
Compression is still worse but again, the difference is getting narrower.
The big key in this is residential and mobile Internet bandwith speeds. Just here in back-woods freaking Lawton our cable Internet ISP now provides 250 megabit per second service. That's 10 times the typical bandwidth you see from a movie on consumer Blu-ray disc. Gigabit Internet speeds are becoming more common in larger cities. Mobile phone companies are battling each other for bragging rights in advanced 4G and new "5G" technology, demonstrating bandwidths above 200Mb/s and 300Mb/s. In another 10 years Gigabit Internet speeds will be pretty common. And at that time any bandwidth advantages d-cinema theaters have over home viewing options may be a moot point.
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Lyle Romer
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1400
From: Davie, FL, USA
Registered: May 2002
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posted 07-17-2017 12:23 AM
quote: Bobby Henderson
The big key in this is residential and mobile Internet bandwith speeds. Just here in back-woods freaking Lawton our cable Internet ISP now provides 250 megabit per second service. That's 10 times the typical bandwidth you see from a movie on consumer Blu-ray disc. Gigabit Internet speeds are becoming more common in larger cities. Mobile phone companies are battling each other for bragging rights in advanced 4G and new "5G" technology, demonstrating bandwidths above 200Mb/s and 300Mb/s. In another 10 years Gigabit Internet speeds will be pretty common. And at that time any bandwidth advantages d-cinema theaters have over home viewing options may be a moot point.
All of those speeds are peak, not sustained. Consumer plans don't have dedicated pipes with the speed guaranteed even with fiber. The oversubscription ratio in the network makes it highly unlikely to be able to stream video at those speeds. Sure, you could download it first.
With mobile, if you streamed at those file sizes, you'd either have a $1,000 bill for overages or have your unlimited plan speed throttled down to that of a 28k modem.
The other part of the equation, is that it isn't free for the streaming services to output the streams. They have to pay for bandwidth so unless there is a market of people paying a premium to get ultra low compression ratio video, they won't stream at those rates. They will continue to provide whatever level of compression they can get away with for 95% of their customers to think the picture looks good on their 55 inch TV.
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Marcel Birgelen
Film God
Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 07-17-2017 07:13 AM
This thing was already discussed in this topic. Unless they find a way to make it audio-transparent AND get rid of potential screen-door effects even in the front row, I don't see any use for this in big venues.
Also, flexibility in screen sizes still will make this an issue, as long as you want to avoid scaling and don't care about "oddball" aspect ratios and maximizing screen real-estate.
The flexibility in screen sizes might increase, once multiple pixel pitches become available. Still, since it all needs to be DCI compliant, you cannot just pick and choose from any manufacturer you please.
quote: Scott Norwood
Bobby (or anyone else who might know): what would a screen like this weigh? Could it be flown like a regular movie screen in a live stage house, or would it need to be fixed in its position?
All current LED screen installs are considerably more heavyweight than any conventional screen. In general, I wouldn't really want to fly such a screen, because it's a pretty delicate piece of electronics.
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 07-17-2017 09:04 AM
quote: Lyle Romer
All of those speeds are peak, not sustained. Consumer plans don't have dedicated pipes with the speed guaranteed even with fiber. The oversubscription ratio in the network makes it highly unlikely to be able to stream video at those speeds. Sure, you could download it first.
I personally have a modest 25 megabit per second plan with our local cable ISP and it routinely sustains 27 megabits per second. If I stream video content from a service like Netflix or HBO GO I get video quality that easily blows away satellite TV and comes close to rivaling Blu-ray. The content starts playing immediately. It's not taking seconds or minutes to buffer like it did in the past (when I had AT&T's 3Mb/s "Uverse" and DSL service). Perhaps if I get a 4K TV in the next couple or so years I might upgrade to their 75 or 125 megabit tier to stream content in 4K. Right now there's just not enough native 4K stuff out there to watch. I'm not bothering with crap blown up from 2K to fake 4K.
Mobile phone service quality varies by location, but I have personally seen sustained speeds on my carrier over 100 megabits per second in places like Wichita Falls (but not here in Lawton unfortunately). I have an unlimited data plan and never seen my connection throttled down to old world 28k modem speed.
Whether the advertized speeds are sustained or peak, residential and mobile Internet service is getting faster and faster. Unfortunately the improved quality of video streaming has played a role in killing off the traditional video store and even laying waste to music stores. Commercial movie theaters may see their technological edge in terms of bit rate badly eroded too.
Another thing to bear in mind: DCPs for movie theaters can be overrated for quality. Some DCPs will have enormous file sizes (over 200GB) and bandwidths that are at the upper limit. I've seen other 2-hour DCPs only 60GB in size. When you consider some of the compression rules for DCP authoring (like no inter-frame compression and limits on tile blocks) a 2K DCP only 60GB in size may look no better than a consumer Blu-ray encode and maybe even potentially worse.
quote: Scott Norwood
Bobby (or anyone else who might know): what would a screen like this weigh? Could it be flown like a regular movie screen in a live stage house, or would it need to be fixed in its position?
If the LED screen is made up of the usual plastic and metal driver board modules, a movie theater screen sized display could easily weigh thousands of pounds. The auditorium would need a steel support structure to hold it.
quote: Marcel Birgelen
Also, flexibility in screen sizes still will make this an issue, as long as you want to avoid scaling and don't care about "oddball" aspect ratios and maximizing screen real-estate.
To repeat what I said earlier, these manufacturers already make these boards in various pixel pitches. Different pitches will create different screen sizes.
quote: Marcel Birgelen
This thing was already discussed in this topic. Unless they find a way to make it audio-transparent AND get rid of potential screen-door effects even in the front row, I don't see any use for this in big venues.
The screen door effect issue is solved by installing a display with the correct pitch for viewing distance. If a unit with something like a 4mm or 2.5mm pitch is too coarse then you can go tighter to something like 1.9mm or 1.2mm.
Displays like these are not getting installed in movie theaters at the moment (in part because of the sound thru screen issue), but they are going up in other high traffic places. I've seen them in malls, large sports bars, stadiums and hanged on the exteriors or interiors of other kinds of businesses. These displays are going to continue getting better and better.
quote: Marcel Birgelen
All current LED screen installs are considerably more heavyweight than any conventional screen. In general, I wouldn't really want to fly such a screen, because it's a pretty delicate piece of electronics.
The Daktronics units we sell are not "delicate," especially the outdoor units. These things have to stand up to serious weather conditions: heat, cold, rain, wind, hail and dust.
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Marcel Birgelen
Film God
Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 07-17-2017 01:07 PM
quote: Bobby Henderson
To repeat what I said earlier, these manufacturers already make these boards in various pixel pitches. Different pitches will create different screen sizes.
Unfortunately, not really relevant until Samsung starts making them. Or others, like Daktronics join the DCI train and implement end-to-end encryption.
You see, in DCI, everything that needs to generate an image, needs to be certified or otherwise you won't be showing any DCI content on those screens. So, you can't just put a Daktronics ledwall into your room and expect to play the latest Spider-man movie.
Also, even with variable pixel pitches, you're not as flexible as with current screen sizes. And you still don't account for the many different aspect ratios we're currently dealing with. At least, as long as I can zoom or anamorphically squeeze the image, I'm presenting the image without any scaling. You simply can't do this with a fixed pixel imaging device like a LED wall.
quote: Bobby Henderson
The screen door effect issue is solved by installing a display with the correct pitch for viewing distance. If a unit with something like a 4mm or 2.5mm pitch is too coarse then you can go tighter to something like 1.9mm or 1.2mm.
This will even further complicate designing the display correctly, at least if I want to have my screen a "native" 4K resolution. You see, many of those modern PLF cinemas really run over-sized hunks of screens. On many of those screens you clearly can see pixels, EVEN in 4K. Fortunately, the screen-door effect of DLP is somewhat limited, especially with modern DMDs, where the space between the mirrors is pretty small. Also, the DMDs will never be entirely in focus, further reducing the screen door effect. The screen door effect of LED screens of comparable resolution will be visible, especially in darker scenes and it will be terrible.
I know, because I've seen it. Back in 2013, when 4K slowly became a thing, I already saw a demo of a giant 4K LED wall by Barco. It looked amazing from a distance, but from a normal "seating distance" in any modern "PLF screen", I already started to notice the screen door effect.
So, either you use some kind of diffuser in front of the screen, or I won't even dare to look at it.
quote: Bobby Henderson
The Daktronics units we sell are not "delicate," especially the outdoor units. These things have to stand up to serious weather conditions: heat, cold, rain, wind, hail and dust.
The outdoor models will only be heavier, so more difficult to "fly" in any stage setup. It's not impossible to do, but I'm pretty sure the Samsung install isn't suitable for this.
quote: Bobby Henderson
I've seen them in malls, large sports bars, stadiums and hanged on the exteriors or interiors of other kinds of businesses. These displays are going to continue getting better and better.
They got increasingly better in the last few years already, but I'm still not sure we're there yet. You see, I don't mind so much seeing pixels on a billboard. Even on a large out-door venue screen I can somehow live with it. Still, I will NOT watch a movie on a screen with noticeable screen door effect.
I still remember those 1.3K machines, the precursor to the current DCI machines. They used to have a terrible screen door effect. In the front rows, anything presented with them was just entirely unwatchable.
quote: Steve Guttag
If it is just technology, the home has eclipsed most cinemas a long time ago. Sound wise, there are many other choices and the person can pick what suits their hearing tastes best. Picture wise, 4K in the home isn't even "special" anymore, it is standard. The Cinema continues to be stuck at 2K with mostly miserable 4K options (low contrast, or speckle, VERY high costs).
It just doesn't cost the homeowner all that much to set up a reasonably impressive home-theatre with technology that stands pretty close to professional and, in many cases, better.
Cinema always has been a technical race, from the very first incarnation of moving images to what we have now. But it wasn't until quite recently that you could have a picture quality that equals or in many aspects even excels 35mm at home.
One of the very limiting factors right now is the whole DCI certification issue. In my opinion, we're stuck with overpriced speciality equipment, provided by just a handful of suppliers who also have the tendency to consolidate each other every now and then, only further limiting options. They control the pricing and we're stuck with them when it comes to innovation. Look at what they come up with... Just one example: Barco Escape? Really?
Meanwhile, I've done stuff with edge-blended large stacks of affordable projectors on large, curved screens, which would be entirely mind blowing, if it would be possible for actual feature presentations of "hot" content. Cinema could be a lot more, if not only Hollywood would be allowed to experiment more, to innovate and to progress beyond what we have now.
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