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Topic: Datasat Digital Entertainment acquired by ATI
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Marcel Birgelen
Film God
Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 09-20-2017 02:10 AM
The strength of the AP20 is obviously the large diversity of inputs and outputs. As an audio matrix switcher, it's a pretty affordable machine, compared to the alternatives. If you're running just a "simple" multiplex operation, where most of your screens never see anything else than movies, then simply drop in a CP750 and be done with it.
I'm hoping QSC will improve their pricing on the Q-Sys platform, because it can essentially do anything the AP20 can and more. The only advantage of the AP20 is that it's a out-of-the-box solution which doesn't need a lot of configuration to work in most cinema settings.
For a single screen setup, a Q-Sys implementation is simply too expensive. It's usually not the Core that's the problem, but if you add the interfaces and the hours needed to get the same functionality out of it as for a similar AP20 setup, then it's currently way more expensive.
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Carsten Kurz
Film God
Posts: 4340
From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009
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posted 09-21-2017 06:23 AM
I think the JSD-80 is no longer available. Second hand, yes, certainly.
The QSC DPM-100H is a fairly recent device. I guess USL would have been interested in developing a new processor with more HDMI connectivity, but now that they are part of QSC, I guess that won't happen for a while with the DPM-100H just released.
There are probably more chances that Trinnov upgrades the Ovation with some HDMI features. Of course you could always utilize an external HDMI switcher, but the decoding still needs to be done in the processor.
But then, what tells us that the Ovation will stay with us much longer than an AP20...
The CP750 is a bit like VHS, cheap, but forever...
- Carsten
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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!
Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 09-21-2017 09:05 AM
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Just about everyone is using the DVI-D input on the legacy module and either coax or analog non-sync on the processor.
So let me get this straight. You pony up the Trinnov processor as a replacement to the AP20. The Trinnov Ovation is known for its advanced sonic processing (Acoustic Optimization), something that the AP20 also is known for (Dirac, though not the same thing is also something other, possibly superior than simple EQ) even though the Ovation lacks another key feature of the AP20, the matrix input outputs in both digital as well analog audio. Furthermore, the Ovation lacks HDMI inputs, thereby negating the best audio that alternative content has to offer.
Instead, because you lack the goods, you throw out that "your" customers use lame 2-channel for their Blu-rays or other similar sources like analog stereo via non-sync or perhaps the coax input to get a 2:4 matrix decode. As they say, garbage in, garbage out.
Again, I'm not picking on the Ovation for what it does or doesn't do, here. It is just not a substitute for the AP20 to the typical AP20 user. Now, if you were to boast the Ovation as an alternative to the CP750, JSD60, JSD100, then you could discuss the merits of its processing/features as compared to the others.
If the sole purpose of your customers needing the DVI/HDMI inputs is for ads, then sure, the audio part need be no better than stereo, at the moment, because that is about all that content providers place on the ads, from what I can tell. But once you bring in DVDs and Blu-rays or even over-the-air stuff, as most of my customers do, then you need to address multi-channel discrete audio in a 5.1/7.1 configuration (and Atmos for those so equipped).
What a processor, like the DPM-H provides is an HDMI input that does address those concerns in a rather basic processor, otherwise. It is only 2U but even that is not a replacement to the AP20, for the typical AP20 user. Having up to 16-channels in/out PLUS multiple HDMI inputs, oh and if you still are maintaining film, then there is a film head-end in there too! It packs quite a bit in a pre-built package.
I honestly think that the future of the AP20 type processor is going to be in the DSP world rather than a canned solution. Take a QSYS 110f. It is less than half the price of an AP20 and can be a 16x8 processor out of the box or an 8x16 and is expandable (it is a core, after all). And yes, you have to configure it but once you have your templates, you don't have to recreate that work each time. You can create your own UI and implement that as you see fit. Again, something you don't have to start from square-1 each time. This is more like the CP200 model of last century where yes, it did the essential things but you could expand it. Back then expansion meant hardware. Now it is likely a combination of hardware and software.
I think Lonny had an excellent idea of creating a QSYS repository for UI and designs. If nothing else, that would give folks a starting point or ideas of what can be done. Some have already posted screen shots of their designs and they are most impressive. That is where I think the future of the AP20 type user will be.
If you need film, then add in a CP650 or other cinema processor as a source. That is already what we are doing for our film customers. Why tie down a digital system by forcing it through 20th century technology and restrictions?
I still think there is a place for "canned" solutions but I suspect that people that want flexibility, will want more flexibility and DSP has that, though typically less longevity.
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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!
Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 09-21-2017 12:53 PM
Mark, you miss the point. Nobody was saying that the AP20 was required for all installations anymore than the CP200 was required for all installations, in its day. The AP20 catered to the more complex systems.
Most of our systems are CP750s because, quite frankly, that is all the customer wanted/needed and they have done exceedingly well for us. They are not in our more complex systems because they would require much more overhead to "fit" stuff through it. We have used QSC's DCP products in some locations because it has quite a few inputs/outputs available, plus it handles the crossover and booth monitor functions all in one box. It has a six channel input (handy for legacy film processors to connect to), an 8-channel input (handy for Blu-ray or other video), S/PDIF (though no decoding aside from 2:4), handy for the laptop type input and then a whole Cobranet layer, though dated now, provides a means to get many other sources in/out, even at a distance. I agree it is a wanting UI and the -80 - +10dB fader thing is wrong for a multi-turn knob.
As for the Ovation being pricey. It is certainly pricier than typical DCinema sound processors (CP750, JSD60) but it also provides more audio processing so there is value there. I don't think a "better mousetrap" should have to be priced like the lesser alternatives either. But that doesn't make it fit every application. Even if the client likes the Ovation sound, one would still need overhead to fit it into the system since it lacks the I/O of a typical multi-use room.
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