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Author Topic: Stealth Theater
Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 01-30-2002 05:33 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Having done work for "Uncle Buck Kolkmeyer" at his more straight foreword West Bend, Wisconsin site, which is alot nicer than this place, I can attest to the fact that he buys mostly used equipment. At West Bend it was all rebuilt X-L's and was actually quite decent. All the sound system components were new there and consisted of Smart, Ultra Stereo and JBL.

I've been wondering about his Stealth design for a number of years. Man, am I glad that I didn't get involved in any of these places. I agree with Brad, "tell self never to get involved with a Stealth Theatre". It would be about impossible to do a decent EX Surround system in there. Acoustics may actually be pretty good though due to room shape, although this is so unconventional I'd never even consider it. Unless megabucks is spent on lenses and lamphouses I can well imagine focus is not too good either. Screens this deep sometimes require stops installed into the lenses to get any decent focus at all and this eats up alot of light.

I love the conduit work under the wall mount sound rack! Looks bent into place instead of being bent before putting in palce which is usually the thing you do. Ha! Also, the film running back to the platter directly across the floor, and these look to be unsealed concrete floors to me. A real dust zone and disaster zone going on all at once here guys. This place could probably use a 55 gallon drum of Film-Guard a month! All in all one of the dunbest ideas I've seen in ages. But then, people have been offered the Brooklyn bridge for purchase too.
Mark
P.S. Note the Cineplex Odeon insignias on the Super Highlites! Isn't there a Stealth insignia, or does the Air Force own that?



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Dave Bird
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 777
From: Perth, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Jun 2000


 - posted 01-30-2002 08:05 AM      Profile for Dave Bird   Author's Homepage   Email Dave Bird   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"Stealth" surely refers to the fact that you know you're in a theatre, yet you can't see the picture???

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Betsie Beadling
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 178
From: Fairfax, Virginia, USA
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 01-30-2002 08:10 AM      Profile for Betsie Beadling   Email Betsie Beadling   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Woudent Watching a Curved Screen Look Weird??

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Richard Fowler
Film God

Posts: 2392
From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jun 2001


 - posted 01-30-2002 08:25 AM      Profile for Richard Fowler   Email Richard Fowler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Barf...........Most of my clients work with TK architects, a great bunch or we are doing a "barnraising" disguised with seats, drapes, screen to imitate a cinema. One of my favorite cinema designers I work with is an 80 year old guy, who did his "first" stadium cinema that was shown in an article published in the 1946-47 Theatre Catalog yearly review.
Richard Fowler
TVP-Theatre & Video Products Inc. www.tvpmiami.com

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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 01-30-2002 09:03 AM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Betsie;
The curve is fairly slight (2X the throw) so it's not deeply curved.

With a curved screen, the distance from the projector to all areas of the screen are *about* the same, so focus is better (more even) from one side to the other. Some people also feel the picture gets a slight "3D" look.

There have been projection systems that did use a deeply curved screen (like a Dimension 150 or Cinerama theater) but those were special "few-of-a-kind" processes.

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Jerry Chase
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1068
From: Margate, FL, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 01-30-2002 09:16 AM      Profile for Jerry Chase   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John, focus on a curved screen is dependent on the design of the lens, isn't it? Focus is generally optimized for flat or slightly curved film on a flat screen, as I remember.

Watching a deeply curved screen from the side can be disconcerting. Prespective gets all screwed up. This was one of the problems I had watching Cinerama.

Does anyone have a chart of optimal seating positions? I think it looks like a flattened oval? I'd like to overlay that on the corner screen plans and compare it to a coventional arrangement. I can think of a few theatres with corner screens that have been around for a while. I can't say that I cared for them.



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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 01-30-2002 09:35 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If a gain screen is used, it should be curved to optimize the luminance uniformity. Ideally, ray-tracing is used to determine the optimum curve that reflects the projector's light to the center of the seating area. "Installation of Gain Screens" is specified by SMPTE Recommended Practice RP 95.

Matte (gain=1) screens should be installed flat.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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John Walsh
Film God

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From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 01-30-2002 12:57 PM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"Matte (gain=1) screens should be installed flat."

Uh-oh... If that's true, I know one place's that wrong...

But wouldn't a slight curve help generally for focus even on non-gain screens?

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
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 - posted 01-30-2002 02:05 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A potential problem with curving a matte screen is cross-reflections killing contrast. Since a matte surface reflects light in all directions, some ends up on the other side of a curved screen. Usually not a serious problem unless the screen has a fairly "deep" curve. A gain screen is more directional, so it "rejects" the light from off-axis when properly curved.

Recall the original deep-curve Cinerama screens used narrow overlapping strips of screen material, each oriented to reflect the light to the audience, and not to the other side of the screen:
http://www.govst.edu/users/gaskrau/cinestage.html
http://www.cineramaadventure.com/seattlepreps.htm
http://www.weavervale.co.uk/onscreen/cinerama3.htm
http://www.villatheater.com/features/screen.html
http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/widescreen/wingcr1.htm

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 01-30-2002 04:35 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
>>"Since a matte surface reflects light in all directions, "<<

Not necessarily true in a theatre situation where the screens are not truely matte...I have measured "matte" screens with as much as 30% gain. Even the ones that claim to have a gain nearly 1.0 have fall-off on the sides, even using the manufacturer's data...thus a very shallow curve with a "Matte-white" screen works (keep the screen to a scope curve or less...Schneider's "opitimum" radius program will not generally have a problem with the typical Matte-White theatre screen.

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

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John Walsh
Film God

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From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
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 - posted 01-30-2002 11:04 PM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
OK, just so poor Betsie (and me!) are not confused, are curved screens good or bad?

I say a slight (2X) is *good*, mostly for focus reasons. 2X does not seem deep enough to have reflections. Deep curve, yes. But not the small amount applied in your basic multiplex (which I assume would be the same used in this "Stealth Theater.") Keeping the throw distance the same would provide better focus, no?

Jerry, I think lenses are optimized for curve gates... I don't know how lenses would be set to help with curved screens.

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Dave Macaulay
Film God

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From: Toronto, Canada
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 01-31-2002 08:54 AM      Profile for Dave Macaulay   Email Dave Macaulay   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"With a curved screen, the distance from the projector to all areas of the screen are *about* the same, so focus is better (more even) from one side to the other. Some people also feel the picture gets a slight "3D" look." (John Walsh)

A curved screen with the radius equal to the projection distance - so the distances from the projector to all areas of the screen would be closest to being about the same - is NOT an ideal focus situation. In fact it is a terrible focus situation.

A flat film plane will project in perfect focus ONLY onto a flat screen positioned without parallax. Image-to-lens distances must be proportional between source and projected images, the distance from the corner of the film image to the lens aperture is greater than from the center of the film image. With a flat screen these proportions are maintained. With a curved screen they are not. With uncorrected parallax they are not. IF a curved gate is used the situation gets worse.

Cinema lenses have a reasonably large focus depth to give good focus even with curved screens and gates plus parallax.
This ability decreases with shorter throw distances more than would be explained by proportionality alone, with shorter throws the lens is working further from its "infinity focus" where focus depth becomes infinite. Iris reducing rings are usually needed only for shorter throw cinemas with curved screens or bad parallax where, luckily, the screen is small so we have some flexibility with the lamphouse. With a huge screen the light level is usually marginal even with very high wattage bulbs so the reducer is not an option, in a large cinema the designer needs to carefully balance the focus depth of the lens vs the projection and screen geometry.
Hopefully the "stealth" designers didn't ignore that!

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John Pytlak
Film God

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From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 01-31-2002 10:40 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
One way to see if you have significant stray light, including cross-reflection:

Use a large black card or panel (e.g., about the size of a "one-sheet" movie poster) about ten feet from the screen to cast a shadow on the screen in a projected picture having lots of light scenes. Now get close to the screen and try to cast a shadow within the shadow of the card --- any light you see on the screen in the shadowed area is stray light that can degrade projected image contrast. Trace it to its' source --- exit signs, auditorium/aisle lighting, reflections from light colored walls or ceilings, or cross-reflections from the other side of the screen.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-03-2002 06:15 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Richard,
I had a couple of clients that worked with T-K. I was never impressed with Teds work at all. He also has the personality of a goat thats been left outside in the cold too long! Ya want a good architect try Carlos Alonzo in Woodland Hills, Ca. This guy will blow you away the first time you meet him, plus he's not a stiff either.
Mark @ GTS

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Richard Fowler
Film God

Posts: 2392
From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jun 2001


 - posted 02-03-2002 08:34 AM      Profile for Richard Fowler   Email Richard Fowler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mark,
TK is the McDonald's of the industry...a known level of service; his staff makes up for his "faults". My 80 year achitect, Ernesto, who I have done 90 cinemas with, by himself, blows away his entire staff...he has a state of the art set-up / staff: but when there is a problem, he rolls out the tracing paper on his desk, starts drawing to scale, upsidedown ( for the other people at a meeting viewing it in front of him ) and will give you two - three solutions in a minute.
On the young side, there is Gonzalo and his staff at a cinema circuit I supply.....I first started working with him when he was 26...now at 31 and many cinemas later, his projects are like clockwork due to the detailed plans...based on inputs from our shop drawings ( he blew away my front in installer when he received a copy of a project plan with his verbal input and " stick figure" drawings trasformed into accurate, engineered end result....something he never saw at UA or Loews ) and his constant visits to cinemas in the USA and Europe to get ideas.
Most of my work year is spent working with architects and contractors ( after I hang up my money collection hat I use for clients ) and some of the I see is truely amazing. Some projects I work on include a fee based for real world supervision with the end goal is to save the customer money and grief....
Richard Fowler
TVP-Theatre & Video Products Inc. www.tvpmiami.com

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