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Topic: Paying .5% of gross to Music rights assoc.

Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

posted 06-08-2002 12:27 PM

Actually they probably have the law behind them as performance rights organizations collect a fee and then divy it up to performers based usually on a percentage of playtimes on national radio
So a perfomer or composser who produced a piece that was not the top 10 hit may make nothing yet the music may get played a lot in other venues
In Canada currently a similar issue is being raised by two rival collection groups. The royalty to the film company only technically covers the playing of the music in the country of origin not locally

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Richard C. Wolfe
Master Film Handler

Posts: 250
From: Northampton, PA, USA
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 06-10-2002 04:46 PM

There was a time many years ago when ASCAP here in the US sought to license motion picture theatres for the music used in the film themselves. However,it was fought and defeated by the exhibitors.

There is a current bill before congress,CRS-5,which is designed to change the way ASCAP licensing works. In that bill it mentions the litigation that stopped ASCAP from collecting from theatres for film soundtracks. I quote: "When ASCAP sought to license motion picture theater exhibitors, the exhibitors brought a successful antitrust action. District courts in ALDEN-ROCHELLE, Inc. v. ASCAP and M.WITMARK & SONS v. JENSEN held the blanket license violated the restraint of trade provisions of the antitrust laws and required ASCAP to grant "source" licenses to motion picture producers, which would extend to performances in motion picture theaters."

This of course only applies to the United States, but it is hard to believe that the same would not have resulted long before this in the rest of the civilized world.

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Brad Haven
Master Film Handler

Posts: 300
From: fremantle, West Australia
Registered: Aug 2001

posted 06-12-2002 06:55 AM

I went back and had a look at the contract we have, and it was APRA, we pay them a yearly fee to play music from their library (most commercially released music).
If the music in the film is part of their library, then you should (like we do) just pay, which entitles you to play any music on the premises. If the music in the films is not part of their library , then what business is it of theirs to charge you or tell you what you can do with it ?.

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Kevin Baglow
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 135
From: Yeppoon Qld, Australia
Registered: Dec 2000

posted 06-24-2002 06:45 AM

Thanks for the help. And the valuable advise about the past US legal
history.
APRA's solicitors sent me a certified letter today demanding box office figures since I gave them last- five years ago (didn't know what i was doing at the time)
They said they are entitled to audit the figures and cancel the licence agreement if I dont give them accectable figures.
I might write back and ask what films they own the music rights to...will advise the outcome

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000

posted 06-24-2002 07:19 AM

Dick: I didn't know you had to pay the PRS to play radios in public. If so then IMHO this is a complete ripoff and seems to me to be legally dubious. If I listen to a radio broadcast in my home or car I pay nothing. If I listen to the exact same broadcast in a public bar then money has to change hands. The copyright owner has already been paid by the radio station broadcasting the copyright recording. Making the receiving premises pay too sounds to me like trying to charge twice for the same service.

I can understand the principle of a PRS licence for things like juke boxes and non-sync in cinemas, because an exclusive service is being delivered to those premises, i.e. you are paying for the right to play specific recordings on specific premises at a specific time, which cannot be heard by anyone unless they are on those premises at that time. But a free-to-air broadcast can legally be heard by anyone, anywhere, and the right to make copyright material available in this way has already been paid for by the broadcaster.

The music rights issue must be a nightmare when distributing a film in many different countries, with potentially a different person or organisation controlling the copyright to each piece of music in each country...

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Stan Gunn
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 176
From: Clematis, in the hills near Melbourne Australia
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 06-26-2002 04:36 PM

When I had a small country cinema over 35 years ago you were required to have an A.P.R.A. LICENCE to reproduce a film sound track, or play any music at the venue.

When I went portable I was advised that the licence had to be changed to a traveling exhibitor licence, in my case it worked out cheaper as the estimated audiance was less than in a fixed cinema.

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ALL PARTS FOR VICTOR AND KALART VICTOR 16MM PROJECTORS.SERVICE TO 35 AND 16MM PROJECTION EQUIPMENT.
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Per Hauberg
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 883
From: Malling, Denmark
Registered: Jul 2000

posted 06-26-2002 06:14 PM

Yeah - Film producers pay someone to wríte music, and we pay rent for the film. That ought to be enough - but it isn't. In DK, we pay one percent of BO, covering film music and use of copyrighted music in foyer, auditoria etc. -Cd's to be bought and payed for on side...
Worse: It's legal !!

Per

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Bernard Tonks
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 619
From: Cranleigh, Surrey, England
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 06-27-2002 05:33 AM

Dick said:

quote:
PRS, The Performing Rights Society, in the UK charge us an annual fee for the use of copyright music in the theatres and throughout the rest of the museum.
they also charge hairdressers ,shops, factories etc a fee for playing the radio in their salons,also copyright music "on hold".

The PRS licence only covers film soundtracks. PPL, The Public Performing Licence, charge the annual fee for the use of copyright music elsewhere to the public including non-sync in theatres.

Before I closed my cinema, I was hounded twice by a third body, VPL, The Video Performing Licence, for a video music licence.

You could that say that UK cinemas are well and truly being ripped off.

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Dustin Mitchell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1865
From: Mondovi, WI, USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 06-28-2002 08:59 PM

I've already shown I don't know much about this, but it occurs to me you may not be required to pay a percent of the gross on all films. Things like Insomnia and Star Wars, whith all music composed for the movie, might not fall under this racket.

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Kevin Baglow
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 135
From: Yeppoon Qld, Australia
Registered: Dec 2000

posted 10-04-2002 07:06 AM

It's taken APRA 3 months to respond to my reply to there demand. I asked for a list if films in which they own the music. I got was this responce:
BREECH OF FILM EXIBITORS (ANUAL) LICENCE
As you are aware APRA is the collecting society in Australia in respect of the performing rights of composers and music publishers. It represents more than 30,000 local members and also represents the members of overseas collecting socities that have reciprocal agreements with APRA
From APRAS correspondence you should also be aware that APRA is the owner of the copyright for such purposes in a large number of musical works by virtue of assignments from its local members and affiliation with overseas societies. (I DONT HAVE ANY SUCH CORROSPONDENCE)
APRA does not represent films-its owns the copyright for the relevent purpose in the musical works reproduced in films. The law in Australia & the United States differ significantly in relation to the public performance of musical works in cinemas.
Under clause 6.2 of your agreement, you must provide APRA with the details of the box office receipts for the Premeses on or before 1 October of each licence year.
We are instructed to demand that within 14 days of the date ofthis letter you return to us the box office information for years ending 97 to 01

This difference in law outside the US seems to be because no one has yet sood up to them (Wimps)

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 10-04-2002 12:34 PM

Run a bunch of screen ads with digital projectors and sound. That way, you'll get paid for it, and then you can laugh at those idiots who are trying to squeeze money out of your pocket. I understand some companys will even supply and maintain the equipment for you.

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Kevin Baglow
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 135
From: Yeppoon Qld, Australia
Registered: Dec 2000

posted 10-04-2002 09:18 PM

I do that , we pay PPCA $40 a year to play music before the movie.
APRA wants .5 % of ticket sales on top of The Distributors getting there 55%

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Lindsay Morris
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 233
From: Darlington, WA, Australia
Registered: Sep 2002

posted 10-05-2002 02:21 AM

Kevin,

APRA actually want 0.55% of 60% of your gross door admissions.
I have just paid mine and I am looking at the account and how they calculate it.
They are a fairly intractable group to deal with as I had a few problems with incorrect names and addresses on our first few accounts and I had to become quite "cranky" with them before they managed to get off their backsides and ammend our details.
(Was getting snaky letters from them demanding payment when they had sent Invoices to wrong addresses etc)

They also have a very strange way of calculating the amounts as they do it in two chunks... possibly so to relieve the burden of the bill for bigger sites.
Most cinemas get two bills a year in Australia from APRA.

In our case running just 5 months I find it a bit tiresome to have to submit figures for for a period when we are not on screen.
I tried to get them to just give me one bill annually.... ha ha pigs might fly!

I reluctantly pay up as I consider that it is an IMPOST as we have no control over what music is supplied via the soundtrack but agree that we should pay to provide Non Sync music from CD's/tapes etc.
How do they "divvy" the spoils up if they have no idea who played what at what cinema... all a bit "nebulous" to me and the sceptic in me wonders IF the music makers actually EVER get any of this money collected.
What about if we just used a FM station for Non Sync and just played that???
Would APRA be double dipping if they tried to slug us for fees then as the FM station has to dutifully log EVERY track they play every day and submit details to most likely APRA to pay the copyright fee.
A mate of mine does a Jazz segment on a local FM station for a hour or so each week and it drives him crazy just doing all the paperwork for copyright purposes.
I guess that this is one of those little crosses we have to bear just running a small business as it seems that every time you turn about some other group has their hands in your back pocket.

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Kevin Baglow
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 135
From: Yeppoon Qld, Australia
Registered: Dec 2000

posted 10-05-2002 08:45 AM

There are two groups. I don't mind paying the $40 a year for non- sinc music to the PHONAGRPHPIC PERFORMING RIGHTS ASSOCATION OF AUSTRALIA
The group in question is APRA who claim the music in the film. Maby we should be paying modeling fees to the extras in starwars 3 as well!!!

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 10-06-2002 12:55 AM

I know of several theatres that have recently been harassed by ASCAP. Its still best to bring in canned music for doing this legally. In two of these locations the ASCAP local person happened by these theatres on his way home from the office!!
Mark @ CLACO

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