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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Ground Level   » Paying .5% of gross to Music rights assoc. (Page 3)

 
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Author Topic: Paying .5% of gross to Music rights assoc.
Jacob Huber
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 172
From: Evansville, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 10-16-2002 12:18 AM      Profile for Jacob Huber   Email Jacob Huber   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
From ASCAP

In most countries outside the United States, motion picture theaters are required to pay performance royalties for music used in theatrically distributed films. These fees are collected by the local performing-rights society in each country (PRS in England, GEMA in Germany, JASRAC in Japan, SACEM in France, SOCAN in Canada, APRA in Australia, BUMA in the Netherlands, etc.) which, in turn, distribute royalties to the writers and publishers of music contained in the films distributed in their territories. The foreign societies will remit the writer's share of such monies directly to the performing rights society that a writer is a member of (i.e. ASCAP in the U.S.), which will then pay these theatrical performance royalties as a foreign distribution. In simple language, what this means is that, if you managed to get a song in a movie that is released outside the U.S., you'll get checks from your performing rights society that they in turn have received from the foreign performing rights organizations that collected the money for you in the first place. In contrast to the handling of writer royalties, the music publisher normally allows its representative in each foreign territory to directly collect its publisher royalty share in the local country.

Theater license fees vary by country and are usually a percentage of the theater's box office receipts. Because of the worldwide appeal of many motion pictures -- Titanic and Star Wars, to cite a couple of obvious examples -- it's not unusual for successful films to generate hundreds of thousands of dollars in theatrical performance royalties


So... it's on the side of APRA.

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 10-18-2002 02:38 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Of course it would be. You would think that if a theatre books a film, everything is already paid up front by the producer (how can a producer use music that he hasn't paid for in the first place?). Since when does a film company sell you a picture that is encumbered and not free and clear? What about all the other rights that are involved with making a motion picture -- the actor's likeness rights -- does the theatre have to pay a percentage because it is showing the likeness of the actor? Perhaps the theatre should be made to pay a percentage so that the salaries of everyone who worked on the film can be paid after the fact. It is totally absurd, but not surprising. Why doesn't the royalty company just go to the studio and say, "Hey, you claim you made umpteen million dollars on this picture, therefore you owe us a royalty percentage of that money for the music you used in the film? At the very least, if your system is legitimately set up with royalties being collected AFTER the film is released, certainly you should only pay a percentage of your NET from the film. If you are get only 10% of the gate and the distrib is getting 90%, why should you pay a percentage of the full ticket price? -- let the distribution company pay the .05% on the 90% he takes with you paying a percentage only on what you make on the ticket price....your 10%. Anything less is quite unfair.

Even though in the US the royalty companies haven't yet adopted this absurd concept -- "pay for music used in the film" -- although I can just imagine the ASCAP guy drooling at the thought of such an arrangement -- here in the states ASCAP & BMI still try to extract every loose penny that might be rattling around in anyone's pocket. They want venues to pay a licensing fee (which we do) that is a blanket fee for the entire year; it allows us to play any music that they represent either prerecorded non-sync or performed by artists at our live shows. The fee is based on the number of seats and the number of performances we put on average in a year. Yet these royalty companies also hound the artists who perform music in our theatres to also pay a licensing fee for the very same music that we already paid for by virtue of our fee. A fee for the same piece of music is being collected twice.

They wanted to do the same with radio stations. The stations pay ASCAP and BMI royalties, then the royalty companies want to force the restaurant owner who plays a radio in his establishment to pay a royalty fee also. Again, the royalty companies are collecting twice. Or would like too -- I think a restaurant association successfully fought that battle and won.

This is nothing less than extortion and should be fought in court any place the royalty companies try to pull that kind of a shakedown; in the case of performers in venues like ours, they still are being harassed, so far to my knowledge -- the scam continues. It certainly would make a good class action suit for some aggressive law firm who wanted to fight it. The practice harms both the venue and the performer.

Frank


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Kevin Baglow
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 135
From: Yeppoon Qld, Australia
Registered: Dec 2000


 - posted 04-08-2003 04:22 AM      Profile for Kevin Baglow   Author's Homepage   Email Kevin Baglow   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
LATEST DEVELOPMENTS: The first Australian music copyright royalties collector: The PPRAA (who were charging $30 a year- for what I thought was music played before the films)just wrote and said they had reached an agreement with the big theatre companys to charge AU$190 per screen (and to be increased by 5% a year) for the "use of copyright material in theatres"
That's on top of the second collecting group APRA -who claim to own .5% of office receipts (after film hire). APRA just sent me a certified letter threatening to take their claim to the Supreme court if i don't coff up. So Every one is stakeing a claim to the box office pie. The film companys booking advise states that they are granting a licence to sell tickets to there product. That should clear the film of further claims from any one elce.
Maby film hire terms in the US are higher than the rest of the world -to cover the music copyright. There must be a reason why the rest of the world caves in so easly to these peoples demands.

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Per Hauberg
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 883
From: Malling, Denmark
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 04-08-2003 10:53 AM      Profile for Per Hauberg   Author's Homepage   Email Per Hauberg   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In Denmark, one % of years total admission goes to KODA, covering film soundtracks and non-sync everywhere in building.
In the same way, KODA charge us, when having live concerts and our neighbours, the Barber and the Cafeteria has to pay them for playing music - Also if it is just a portable radio in the kitchen. -If custumers in any way can hear music, You'll have to pay.

Per

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John Spooner
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 186
From: South Australia, Australia
Registered: Jan 2003


 - posted 04-08-2003 12:49 PM      Profile for John Spooner   Email John Spooner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dear Australian colleagues.
We had the same problem a few years back, where-in a rather hard looking lady (we think she did not like men) told us the same routine. So we simply played copyright free music for non-svnc. Also I understand a large Adelaide exhibitor did not play non-sync at all for some time.
As a member of the Union, I can forward this matter onto our local ATAEA rep. and obtain their opinion. Let me know your instructions as what to do.
Also the theatre managers on this forum should be able to refer this scam, let`s call it what it seems, to their Association.

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Matt Hale
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 123
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: Dec 2002


 - posted 04-08-2003 07:38 PM      Profile for Matt Hale   Author's Homepage   Email Matt Hale   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There may not actually be double-dipping going on here. When a producer liscences a song for use in a movie, they have the option of buying global rights, or rights for certain areas i.e. North America only. If the movie is not expected to be a wide release they will usually go for the limited rights to save money. Then, of course, when the movie does get shipped overseas they should buy the additional rights. Unfortuneatly, by the time the movie gets overseas the company that produced it (in the legal entity sense) is long shut-down. The distributor should see that the rights are paid for, but of course they're not interested in paying anything more than they absolutely have to, so they leave it up to the exhibitor to pay.

The next logical step is for the exhibitor to offload these fees onto the patron, such as adding a 1% surcharge to each ticket... [Roll Eyes]

Also complicating matters is that for every song there are two sets of rights to buy: The publishing rights, and the rights to the specific recording used. These are not always owned by the same group. As an example, a movie that I am currently involved with is using Dean Martin's "That's Amore" We have bought the right to use the song, however the record company that owns Martin's recording of that song is asking too much money, so we have paid to have the song re-recorded by another singer. So now we own the rights to a recording of "That's Amore" but we still cant use our recording without paying the music publisher.

So APRA may have some legitimate claim that your theatre is playing music that has not been paid for, but I think their method of calculating what you "owe" them is definietly bogus. By demanding that you pay them a percentage off the top, they imply that none of the music in any of the shows has been paid for, and I scincerely doubt that is the case.

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Kevin Baglow
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 135
From: Yeppoon Qld, Australia
Registered: Dec 2000


 - posted 04-12-2003 01:43 AM      Profile for Kevin Baglow   Author's Homepage   Email Kevin Baglow   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
APRA seems to be gettind desparate they have just written to the theatre owners association in australia MPEAQ. They now say that instead of charging .5% of Gross after film hire they would now like 1% of all ticket sales. Reasons quoted:The US doesent pay because rights are factored into synchronization licences. But oter European countys pay about 1% of GBO. Also Because music was on 66.68% of movie time on top 20 films. (I would have thought music scores were written and paid for by the producer- every thing elce is) Also because of Heavy investment by cinemas in sound equipment. and because Ticket prices have only risen at about half the rate of inflation. (total gross has risen of cource)

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Dustin Mitchell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1865
From: Mondovi, WI, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 04-12-2003 02:26 AM      Profile for Dustin Mitchell   Email Dustin Mitchell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I am still curious about your obligation to pay when the film contains only original compositions.

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Kevin Baglow
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 135
From: Yeppoon Qld, Australia
Registered: Dec 2000


 - posted 04-19-2003 12:35 AM      Profile for Kevin Baglow   Author's Homepage   Email Kevin Baglow   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As far is I can work- out the answer to:
--------------------------------------------------------------
"why should various artists get a % of gross from music that was written and performed for the spacific film and paid for by the producer for world release"
--------------------------------------------------------------
is TUFF

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Kevin Baglow
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 135
From: Yeppoon Qld, Australia
Registered: Dec 2000


 - posted 09-29-2003 07:58 AM      Profile for Kevin Baglow   Author's Homepage   Email Kevin Baglow   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Got a letter by fax from APRA's solicitors a few days ago threatening to take me to the supreme court (OZ)if it didn't pay the percentage of box office as requested. The reason being that I screened three Australian films in which there are a few songs in which APRA represents the copy right holders.
I will reply with a cheque for payment of the requested percentage for thoose films , stating that I will corrospond with the distriburtors of those films to inform them that APRA says the haven't been paid for the specific songs in the films and that I have paid 'x " amuont in hire to APRA for the right to screen the film as licenced by the discributer. I will be very interested to see which films have music which hasn't been paid for --. Will keep u informed (got my body guards on standby)

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Bruce Hansen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 847
From: Stone Mountain, GA, USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 09-29-2003 11:33 AM      Profile for Bruce Hansen   Email Bruce Hansen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It sounds to me like you-all down-there need to start writing your government complaining loudly, to get this mess cleared up. Greed hurts everyone.

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Jack Ondracek
Film God

Posts: 2348
From: Port Orchard, WA, USA
Registered: Oct 2002


 - posted 09-29-2003 02:30 PM      Profile for Jack Ondracek   Author's Homepage   Email Jack Ondracek   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here in the States, we can deduct specific local taxes from the grosses we report, considering that these taxes are "over" the actual admission we charge, and the film companies can't expect percentages on these amounts.

Perhaps, if the companies you're dealing with aren't paying the copyright fees, you can make a case for deducting those fees from the amounts that percentages are imposed on.

Seems a dangerous practice, actually. The idea that you're being required to pay performance fees makes a huge assumption that the studios are authorized to use the music in the first place. Don't they have to acquire these permissions in advance?

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Martin Brooks
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 900
From: Forest Hills, NY, USA
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 09-29-2003 07:43 PM      Profile for Martin Brooks   Author's Homepage   Email Martin Brooks   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Actually, I doubt very much that the film producers didn't pay licensing fees. I bet the rights agency is trying to double-dip. I don't know about OZ, but in the US, the MPAA, ASCAP or BMI cannot come after movie theaters for music that's played within a film.

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