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Author Topic: Gods & Generals (& dts) Question
Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 02-04-2003 12:48 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Mark, I can't speak for the others, but I have been forced to use that trick of breaking the splice on the last reel and running it to another platter for the last show and I have yet to be able to figure out a way to do this without damage. Either the film will get a couple of marks on it while it is slid inside the roller (most platters have keepers) or the film will slip on the takeup ring (scratches) or the film will have to be tucked into a notch in the takeup ring (creased film for a frame or two), etc, etc, and so forth. Please tell me what kind of platter you are using and how you are pulling this off. If indeed you are able to do this, I'm sure there are a lot of other people who would like to know how you are doing it. The criticism comes because I don't think anyone has ever been able to figure out how to do it without film damage.

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-04-2003 12:56 PM      Profile for Mike Blakesley   Author's Homepage   Email Mike Blakesley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Okay, I admit to being curious. Just how in the HELL can you break down a film from a platter, while it's running, without touching more than a frame or two, without any film touching the floor, and with no film damage? Inquiring minds want to know. Not that I'd ever want to try it.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 02-04-2003 01:05 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If you are winding up onto a reel, how do you carefully peel off the reel-end splice without cutting the film and losing frames? And, as others have asked, how do you do it without manhandling the end of the film or getting it dirty/scratched on the floor? Also, when changing to a new reel, how do you not cinch/scratch the film at all as you put it onto the hub of the new reel? Finally, you still have to rewind the reel to properly splice the head leaders back on, so are you really saving time? [Confused]

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Bill Langfield
Master Film Handler

Posts: 280
From: Prospect, NSW, Australia
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 02-04-2003 01:20 PM      Profile for Bill Langfield   Author's Homepage   Email Bill Langfield   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
AT ANOTHER PLACE

I must admit, at times up until about 1996 we at times had the courier hanging around wanting the film at the airport ASAP the night the show finished. (Curfew meant if they missed midnight plane they were stuffed, and it would cost a fortune to road transport it)

So we would run from the platter to 6000's, snap the join at reel 3/4, quickly get the full reel off, and start taking up again on a fresh spool. (Yup about 20-30ft of spool 4 got to hit the floor)

As 4-5-6 were playing 1-2-3 were broken down and ready to go. When 4-5-6 finish, they where broken down within 15 mins.

Compare that to a complete platter break (tear) down. That can't be done in 15 mins.

THESE days at my OTHER places, couriers and management understand this kind of thing WONT happen (helps that the projectors can't take up on reels) So they allow a few hours minimum to break down the print. This applies to day shift. Anything that needs to go out that night, (11pm out by 11.30pm) well is it just is not asked for.

Infact often prints sit there made up for days in the oven or sleeve because no one realy cares when it leaves, then its a matter of getting someone off their ass to break it down.

Bill.

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Mark J. Marshall
Film God

Posts: 3188
From: New Castle, DE, USA
Registered: Aug 2002


 - posted 02-04-2003 02:07 PM      Profile for Mark J. Marshall     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brad, they're the older Strong Alpha platters (I'll verify the exact model numbers when I'm back in the theater). They're the ones where the last roller in the take up path has a small switch in it that triggers the platter into take-up mode when the tension pulls the roller tight. To prevent the platter from taking up prematurely and pulling the film out of my hand or scratching the film, I disengage the motor.

A 1 foot piece of permacel tape firmly stuck on the 2nd take up ring in such a way that the end facing the tree is open is all that's needed to hold the film in place and start it winding. No need to tuck the film under the notch or scratch it by trying to wind it around the ring and make it grab hold.

The break is made when the splice is on its way from the variac to the top rollers on the platter. There are no pad rollers on those top rollers, so a smooth "up and over" is all you need there.

Tucking the film in between the last "rocking" take up roller and the little pad roller that's attached to it is indeed the trickiest part, but with practice, you get pretty good at it, and our movies are all fairly well film guarded which not only lubes things up so they slide in nicely with little effort, but also prevents any minor scratching that may occur. Or if you want, thread it through the rollers.

Pull the film through the last roller up to the take up ring, tape down the open end of permacel tape onto the film, spin the platter by hand to get the variac to a middle-of-the-road position, and re-engage the platter motor. You're off and running and free to start tearing down the first half of the movie normally just like it was another movie.

Something else to keep in mind, pay out from the top platter when you do this. Because the wind caused by tearing down over top of a platter that's paying out is a recipe for problems. At least on our platters it is.

You only need to do this ONCE to any print to get a real jump start on breaking down a movie like Gangs of New York, which is already getting out 45 minutes later than everything else. It's not something that we do every week. Only if (when) time constraints are such that a jump start would be a HUGE help.

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Brad Miller
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Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 02-04-2003 02:23 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Well I'll have to admit I've never thought of using a loop of Permacel tape to grab the film onto the takeup ring. Pretty smart thinking there. I would still think that the keeper rollers would get in the way and make small marks unless the film was *pushed* through. Fortunately I don't work for companies that kick everyone out immediately after the show is over anymore, so the whole thing is a non-issue. 15 minutes is plenty to break down a full movie anyway.

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Scott Norwood
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From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-04-2003 02:28 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brad--how fast is your make-up table? It takes me about 30 minutes to break down a "typical" movie from an AW3, and very little of that time is spent splicing leaders on and changing reels.

Or do you take up onto the platter reel and do breakdowns at the rewind bench?

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Brad Miller
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Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 02-04-2003 02:38 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Oh hell no. Breaking down at a rewind bench takes forever and doesn't do nearly as good of a job as a platter does.

Feel free to clock me and check for any mishandling, but 15 minutes is easy. I do follow a few general tips to speed things up though.

  • Always make sure that whoever is building prints puts a mark on the edge of the reel (like shown in "building 101" in the tips section) so you know when you are right on the splice. This is more important nowadays since labs like Deluxe Hollywood can have as many as THREE lab splices in one reel of film.
  • Once you get the MUT running, go ahead and pull the frame of film on the leader to be spliced on the splicer and have the reel band (or tape) already unraveled and ready to go. The idea here is that you don't want to waste any more time than necessary when the MUT is not running.
  • Use the mondo sized center rings for the last show. Breaking down off of these is much easier to control the platter, as it is not spinning as fast. Plus it puts less stress on the film.
  • When a reel is rewinding, go ahead and make sure that whoever built the film DID leave the tail leader on the hub of the next reel. Why people ever remove the tail leader from the reel is something that just makes no sense. You just have to wind it right back on anyway, and it wastes a LOT of breakdown time. Also, make sure that the depot did not clip the reel together wrong, such that there is no drive pin hole to use. You will waste a lot of time if you don't have the reel properly re-assembled before it is time to mount the reel on the MUT.
  • Run the mut at a good speed. Running slow puts stress on the MUT motor and doesn't produce as good of a wind. This does NOT apply to the "warp speeds" that the Strong MUTs are capable of! Christie MUTs are at an ideal speed between 80-100%.
  • Don't slow the mut down until you are 1/2 inch or less from hitting the splice. Done properly, you can brake the platter (never use the "brake button") with your left hand and slow the MUT down with your right hand all in one clean operation. The film should never develop slack and you shouldn't overtension it during the stopping process either. However once you get the feel for a particular platter, you can go from full speed to stop in 10-15 seconds.
  • Don't look for splices. In fact, throw out any colored splicing tape and all marking devices. When braking with your left hand against the platter deck, you should be feeling for the splice between a finger and thumb. The "brake" is from the lower palm of your hand. Once you feel it go through your fingers and you are comfortable with a certain model platter and MUT, you can come to a full stop right at the splicer.
  • If you are using a Strong MUT, be sure to curse a lot during the breakdown at Strong for being so foolish as to not permit a place to hold the splicer on the MUT itself on breakdown. I don't know why this helps, but it does.
I'm sure there are more little things that I do, but I can't remember them right now.

Disclaimer: people with platters that do not have any sort of breakdown backtension clutch (have to pull the motor away from the platter) are pretty much screwed from saving time on breakdown, as they have to hold the edge of the platter to put manual backtension on during breakdown. If they don't, film damage occurs. [Frown]

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Mark J. Marshall
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Posts: 3188
From: New Castle, DE, USA
Registered: Aug 2002


 - posted 02-04-2003 02:44 PM      Profile for Mark J. Marshall     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Fortunately I don't work for companies that kick everyone out immediately after the show is over
I'm willing to bet that a lot of the other folks who jumped down my throat don't either.

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Mathew Molloy
Master Film Handler

Posts: 357
From: The Santa Cruz Mountains
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 02-04-2003 03:01 PM      Profile for Mathew Molloy   Email Mathew Molloy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've always broken prints down off the platter the same way that I build them up on the platter - using 6K reels. Then it's over to the bench to finish the job up.

That way I'm shipping the prints tails out, which is the preferred method (as far as I'm concerned) of receiving a print.

Brad, you mention not disengaging the motor. I'm using an AW3 and have always disengaged the motor while putting tension on the platter by hand. Don't you feel leaving the motor engaged puts too much stress on the film? Or is the AW3 one of those platters you consider it necessary to disengage the motor?

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Brad Miller
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Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 02-04-2003 06:05 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Christie AW3 and SPECO platters should have their motors left engaged. Try and spin the platter backwards by hand and feel the tension. Now press the "makeup" button and spin the platter backwards by hand. Notice the difference? That's the proper tension setting with the makeup button engaged, so yes the motors should be left to drive against the platter decks. Any platter that free spins on breakdown is causing damage to the film. Granted the damage is minor and many people claim they cannot see it, but whether it will be visible on screen will depend on many factors (mostly how bright your image is), but the damage IS there and it is permanent. Every time the film is handled like that it just gets worse and worse. [Frown]

(Yes my super simple "clutch addon" tips page is coming in the very near future for those other crappy platter designs out there.)

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Steve Kraus
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From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 02-04-2003 07:07 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You should not be expected to do the impossible and whoever agreed that this was possible in the first place dug the grave for the rest of you. Someone should have simply said x minutes is how long it takes and that would have been that.

If next they tell you that after your booth work is done you also need to clean all the auditoria and you have to be done in 15 minutes are you going to kill yourself trying to figure out some ridiculous way to comply? There are some things that simply should not be tried because it's bad if it doesn't work and worse if it does.

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Gracia L. Babbidge
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 709
From: Bowdoin, Maine
Registered: Aug 2000


 - posted 02-05-2003 03:25 AM      Profile for Gracia L. Babbidge   Author's Homepage   Email Gracia L. Babbidge   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
When a reel is rewinding, go ahead and make sure that whoever built the film DID leave the tail leader on the hub of the next reel. Why people ever remove the tail leader from the reel is something that just makes no sense. You just have to wind it right back on anyway, and it wastes a LOT of breakdown time. Also, make sure that the depot did not clip the reel together wrong, such that there is no drive pin hole to use. You will waste a lot of time if you don't have the reel properly re-assembled before it is time to mount the reel on the MUT.
Amen!

That covers some of my biggest pet peeves when it comes to print break-downs!
Granted, it's rare that I'm breaking down a print that I did not build. Yet without fail, when I'm handling a the break-down of someone else's build, I find tail leaders not on reels, reels clipped together wrong, or both. [Razz] grrr...

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Paul Konen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 981
From: Frisco, TX. (North of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-05-2003 10:38 AM      Profile for Paul Konen   Email Paul Konen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just received information that there is going to be a 12 minute intermission built into the print. Total running time is 229 minutes of which 217 is actual footage.

Waiting to hear confirmation that 12 minutes is built into the print.

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Michael Atkinson
Film Handler

Posts: 14
From: Gainesville, FL, USA
Registered: Sep 2002


 - posted 02-05-2003 02:14 PM      Profile for Michael Atkinson   Email Michael Atkinson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The following has been posted on the WB Exhibitor Services site:

quote:
NOW PLAYING: The Civil War Gets an Intermission
A twelve-minute break has been added to Gods and Generals.

Here are some points to consider for your presentation of Gods and Generals:

The Intermission is twelve minutes long, making the feature's total running time three hours and forty-nine minutes.
An Intermission card will appear onscreen 339 feet + 2 frames into Reel 8 of the feature.
This card will hold for fifteen seconds before fading out
Following the card, each print will have eight minutes of black slugged in.
Four minutes of gray with music to cue the audience that the film is resuming will follow the eight minutes of black.

PLEASE DO:

Set magnetic cue tape to bring up the house lights and close the curtain when Intermission begins, and to bring the lights back down and open the curtains back up when Intermission ends.
Alert your floor staff to the Intermission, as a large portion of the audience may head for the lobby, bathrooms, and concession stand.

PLEASE DON'T:

Remove ANY black from the film print.
Shut off the projector during Intermission.



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