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This topic comprises 4 pages: 1 2 3 4
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Author
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Topic: Lawful Carry of Concealed Handguns
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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man
Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 05-12-2004 11:19 PM
Brian, I am not sure of this...maybe it is picking the fly specks out of pepper.
That law, as far as I can determine is a universal law of many states. The weapon must be in clear sight - and unloaded. I think that was the scope of that law. I believe it applied to personnel who did not have a permit to carry a concealed weapon on his/her person, but were allowed to own such a device.
Anyone can feel free to correct me if my interpretation is incorrect.
Some time ago, I sent an email to Brad on how and what the options were if a licensed carrier of a concealed weapon and the proprietor as well as what the law enforcement personnel's options are in event the business owner complains.
Brad, if you still have that email in your archives, please feel free to post it.
One key point is if a concealed weapons carrier with a valid permit refuses to leave the business establishment, the law enforcement personnel can physically remove that person from the premises and cite that individual for trespassing.
I agree - just like the Texas Highway Patrol says...it is usually not the person who holds the CWP that causes the problems. It is the ones who don't.
Here in Washington State, I have heard of only one incident where a felony was committed by a CWP carrier in the last 10 years. In Washington State, if you have so much as one felony, forget about legally owning a pistol. I presume there are many other states that have the same philosophy.
I remember a couple of years ago when one of our Washington State Troopers pulled me over for passing on the shoulder. I not only handed him my driver's license - I also handed my CWP to him with it. He thanked me for that, and really appreciated it. He asked me if I had my pistol on my person, and I said, "No, it is in the glove compartment." He said "Fine, no problem" - and went back to his patrol car like nothing ever happened, made his call-in, came back to my car and gave me a verbal warning about shoulder passing. He told me to have a great day, smiled, jumped back in his cruiser and "set up shop" a little further down the road. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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Paul Mayer
Oh get out of it Melvin, before it pulls you under!
Posts: 3836
From: Albuquerque, NM
Registered: Feb 2000
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posted 05-13-2004 11:21 AM
In Nevada we have both CCW and "open carry" laws for weapons, i.e. one can carry a weapon if it is in plain sight, otherwise it must be totally concealed--no lumps showing whatsoever. In both cases, in Clark County if the weapon is a handgun it must be registered. Most other counties do not require registration of handguns. However, some cities (Boulder City, North Las Vegas) do have "deadly weapons" laws that make it illegal to carry a weapon in a car, unless one can show that the weapon is being carried for work purposes (casino security guards and the like).
Generally CCWs are not allowed in casinos, public buildings equipped with metal detectors at their entrances, public airports, public schools, or public buildings that display a "no firearms" sign, though building admistrators can issue written permissions to carry CCWs within their jurisdictions. The right of a property owner to restrict the carrying of concealed firearms on his or her property is protected under Nevada law.
Basically anyone 21 years of age or older can get a CCW permit provided they meet the requirements of NRS 202.360 (the list of reasons for denial of a CCW permit is quite long). Nevada CCWs are good for five years, and one must show competency with each weapon on a target range each time one wants to renew a CCW--up to two weapons on each CCW. Both residents and non-residents may apply for a Nevada CCW, but the application must be done in person. Nevada CCWs are recognized in Idaho, Indiana, Kentucky, Michigan, Montana and Utah.
[ 05-13-2004, 12:38 PM: Message edited by: Paul Mayer ]
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Rob Butler
Film Handler
Posts: 91
From: Westford, MA, USA
Registered: Mar 2004
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posted 05-13-2004 02:33 PM
I don't understand why it would be legal to conceal in a movie theater and not a school or airplane. If you stand up and yell FIRE for no reason, you can get arrested, but having a weapon in a dark room full of people with lots of visible exits seems kinda stupid to me. If the person is a police officer, it makes sense, but for just any Joe Public, it seems unnecessary. You could say that it's alright if the person has a license to carry, but are your ushers going to ask to see the license before allowing this person in? What if the person falls asleep and doesn't feel someone grab the gun from their holster? What if the gun somehow accedentally fires in a sold out show? Who's responsible if someone gets injured or killed accedentally, the carrier, or the theater for letting him in? To me, it just seems like an accedent waiting to happen.
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Randy Stankey
Film God
Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 05-13-2004 05:17 PM
If I or my wife are carrying a pistol, you will probably never know it. That's why it's called a CONCEALED weapon. That's the whole point. Bad guys never know whether the person they are about to attack is packing a piece.
The prudent weapon owner knows that there are places that are off limits and wouldn't even think of carrying a weapon in certain situations.
Further, there are times when it's just not needed. If you are in a familiar part of town and the crime rate in that neighborhood isn't worrisome for you, carrying a gun is probably going to be a hinderance. It's just another thing to carry around. You've got your cellular phone, your keys, your wallet, your Palm computer, etc., etc. Ladies have their purse to think about. (Though my wife has a purse with a built-in gun pocket which is pretty neat!) There is a point where the need for security balances out with the responsibility of carrying. If it doesn't balance, you probably would be better off not packing.
Y'Know, if a person carrying a gun stands out from the crowd enough to get themselves noticed, they should think twice about what they are doing.
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 05-13-2004 05:34 PM
I was watching The Daily Show on Comedy Central last night. They had a story about an Arizona lawmaker wanting to make it legal to carry a concealed weapon into a bar. Now that has to be one of the stupidest things I've ever heard of. It really has to be a joke, right?
Even if you have a permit to carry a concealed gun, doing so in a bar is just plain irresponsible. You have a few beers, your judgment can get impared and in a bad moment you may do something really stupid. Normally, that just results in a fist fight. If you're fuming out of control, you may reach for that gun, even if it is registered and the police would easily track you down based on the ballistics results (not to mention lots of eyewitnesses). A pretty sizeable percentage of homicides in the United States happen in "heat of the moment" events, in other words un-planned 2nd degree murder.
I have no problem with people having concealed carry permits. Oklahoma has allowed this kind of thing for several years now. But there has to be some limits where guns can be carried. Citizens have to show some discretion. I'm not going to haul a handgun into a hospital. And even if those "no guns allowed" signs on the doors mean nothing legally, any civilian insisting on carrying weapons into places that often post the signs (like churches, schools and hospitals) is acting like an asshole.
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Brad Miller
Administrator
Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99
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posted 05-13-2004 06:25 PM
quote: Bobby Henderson
And even if those "no guns allowed" signs on the doors mean nothing legally, any civilian insisting on carrying weapons into places that often post the signs (like churches, schools and hospitals) is acting like an asshole.
You should rethink your asshole comment. Let's say you own a business and I am making my rounds servicing and one of the stops I have is in an *undesirable* section of town with a super high crime rate. Of course I will have my gun on that trip. Should I happen to patronize your establishment after my daily stops, of course I am going to bring it in with me. No way in hell will I leave it in my car. As stated earlier, should some kids break into my car and get my gun while I am inside your business, I am completely responsible for anything that happens, even though it was the kids who committed the crime. Think about that...especially if those kids in the parking lot are playing with the gun and the kids accidentally shoot your wife/kids as you two are exiting the building. Oh yeah, I'm an asshole for keeping the gun on my person like the law permits instead of potentially letting some kids get ahold of it just because the storeowner is nervous at the idea and wants to put up a sign. Real smart there.
BTW, before you come back with the whole "that isn't safe" argument, it is my personal common practice that if I am going to be in a place I feel is safe that I unload the gun before entering and keep the ammunition in my pocket.
The really funny part is everyone who is getting their panties in a wad over this probably has no clue just how many thousands of guns have been through their building in the last several weeks/months/year (depending on the neighborhood).
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 05-13-2004 09:29 PM
quote: Brad Miller
Let's say you own a business and I am making my rounds servicing and one of the stops I have is in an *undesirable* section of town with a super high crime rate.
That is not the same thing as a church, hospital or school.
Like I said, I have no problem with people having concealed carry permits. You should certainly have capability of carrying a gun if you are on your job and having to make stops in dangerous areas of town. But I just don't think it is necessary to have a gun on your person all of the time. There are times where a gun probably should be left at home, locked in a gun safe.
Around these parts, it can be a pain in the neck to carry a gun. I won't take a gun aboard Fort Sill unless I'm going to their shooting range. And that's a big production. The soldiers do a total search of your vehicle at the gate (they often do this anyway), go through all your paperwork and make you wait for an MP car to follow you to the gun range. They're doing the right thing in being prudent. But it still takes a bunch of time and takes some of the fun out of visiting the firing range.
As far as my "asshole" comment goes, that's just how its going to play in real life. People in this thread are saying the "no guns allowed" signs mean nothing. That's fine. But, I'd like to see the candid reactions of front desk people in a hospital or some white collar business if a guy comes in and says, "I can carry my gun where ever I want regardless of what your sign says." The front desk people are going to think the guy is jerk. If you're going to carry a gun into a hospital, make sure no one will be aware you have it.
Most businesses don't allow employees to pack guns. What worker would feel comfortable about a total stranger walking their workplace armed? That gives more incentive to have a gun completely hidden in that situation or just left at home.
With my luck, if I carried a gun into a hospital odds would be quite a bit greater that I would get embarassed from people finding out I had a gun than having to defend my life in a gunfight. I could just see it. I trip on something, fall down, plotz on the floor, the gun plops out of the holster and spins across the linoleum floor all for wide eyed people to see.
For my own prerogative, I'll respect the "no guns allowed" signs even if I don't have to do so legally. I have few worries of anything bad happening since I don't make a very inviting target. Over 70 percent of homicides happen between people who know each other. With that statistic, I might be more tempted to pack heat at a friend's house!
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Brad Miller
Administrator
Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99
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posted 05-14-2004 12:23 AM
quote: Bobby Henderson
There are times where a gun probably should be left at home, locked in a gun safe.
I agree, however that is the exclusive decision of the person with the license that is carrying the concealed gun, regardless of your opinion. Many will agree, but many will not.
quote: Bobby Henderson
As far as my "asshole" comment goes, that's just how its going to play in real life. People in this thread are saying the "no guns allowed" signs mean nothing. That's fine. But, I'd like to see the candid reactions of front desk people in a hospital or some white collar business if a guy comes in and says, "I can carry my gun where ever I want regardless of what your sign says." The front desk people are going to think the guy is jerk. If you're going to carry a gun into a hospital, make sure no one will be aware you have it.
You are so far out in left field it's not even funny. The laws DO NOT PERMIT the carry of a firearm in a school or hospital! They don't even have to post a sign.
The issue here is that you are not familiar with the gun requirements and as such are speaking without fully understanding the law and people's rights. When people say that a "no guns" sign at a theater means nothing, that is true. I can walk right past one of those little signs posted in a theater packing and be 100% compliant with the law and there is not anything that anyone can do about it. I do not have any such option at a hospital. Sign or no sign, I cannot take a gun in there.
You also keep forgetting that we are talking about concealed handguns by licensed people. If it is concealed, you don't even know who is carrying anyway to accuse them of being a jerk or an asshole. With that in mind, it's going to be kind of difficult for the front desk to know if someone is bringing in a gun anyway, and it might also interest you to know that people carrying cannot announce that they are carrying to other people. Geez! What's your point??? Oh wait, there isn't one. You are making up hypotheticals that simply do not exist per the law.
Please read up on the law before resorting to name calling. The same could be said for people voicing their stern opinion on things which they are ignorant of.
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Ron Yost
Master Film Handler
Posts: 344
From: Paso Robles, CA
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 05-14-2004 03:36 PM
According to the following section of the Texas Code, it is a Class A misdemeanor to carry a concealed handgun onto "property of another without effective consent":
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§ 30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY
CONCEALED HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:
(1) carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another without effective consent; and
(2) received notice that:
(A) entry on the property by a license holder with a concealed handgun was forbidden; or
(B) remaining on the property with a concealed
handgun was forbidden and failed to depart.
(b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice
if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication.
(c) In this section:
(1) "Entry" has the meaning assigned by Section
30.05(b).
(2) "License holder" has the meaning assigned by
Section 46.035(f).
(3) "Written communication" means:
(A) a card or other document on which is written
language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun"; or
(B) a sign posted on the property that:
(i) includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;
(ii) appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and
(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.
(d) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.
(e) It is an exception to the application of this section
that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035.
Added by Acts 1997, 75th Leg., ch. 1261, § 23, eff. Sept. 1,
1997. Amended by Acts 1999, 76th Leg., ch. 62, § 9.24, eff.
Sept. 1, 1999; Acts 2003, 78th Leg., ch. 1178, § 2, eff. Sept. 1,
2003.
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Ron Yost .. not saying anyone is 'right' or 'wrong' .. just hoping to avoid trouble for our well-intentioned host. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 05-14-2004 06:45 PM
quote: Brad Miller
If it is concealed, you don't even know who is carrying anyway to accuse them of being a jerk or an asshole. With that in mind, it's going to be kind of difficult for the front desk to know if someone is bringing in a gun anyway, and it might also interest you to know that people carrying cannot announce that they are carrying to other people. Geez! What's your point??? Oh wait, there isn't one. You are making up hypotheticals that simply do not exist per the law.
My point is if a business, movie theater or neighbor or whoever epxressly puts up a sign and says "no guns allowed," I'm going to respect their wishes and do as the sign says --regardless of what some verbiage in the statutes of Texas, Oklahoma or wherever says I can get away with. Overall it comes down to a manners thing.
Now, if Ron's follow up post on what the Texas statutes actually say is current, it seems those "no guns allowed" signs really do mean something --provided they have 1 inch block letters in Spanish!
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