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Topic: Sony exhibiting Da Vinci Code in 4K

Scott Jentsch
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1061
From: New Berlin, WI, USA
Registered: Apr 2003

posted 06-08-2006 03:35 PM

quote: Lyle Romer
How does your brain know that XXXO is frame 1 and XXXX is frame 2? How does it know that XXXOXXXX isn't just 1 frame or that it isn't 4 frames? I assume the flash rate is set based on persistence of vision but since all humans won't have the exact persistence of vision, how does it work?

3-chip DLP creates color by sending each of the three primaries for a certain amount of time to attain the depth of color needed. I would imagine that the refresh rate of each DLP mirror is extremely high to correctly modulate the right amount of light per primary.

Here is a description from dlp.com:

quote:
A DLP® chip's micromirrors are mounted on tiny hinges that enable them to tilt either toward the light source in a DLP® projection system (ON) or away from it (OFF)-creating a light or dark pixel on the projection surface.

The bit-streamed image code entering the semiconductor directs each mirror to switch on and off up to several thousand times per second. When a mirror is switched on more frequently than off, it reflects a light gray pixel; a mirror that's switched off more frequently reflects a darker gray pixel.

In this way, the mirrors in a DLP® projection system can reflect pixels in up to 1,024 shades of gray to convert the video or graphic signal entering the DLP® chip into a highly detailed grayscale image.

When things get really hinky is when you use only one DLP chip and add a color wheel to rotate between the colors. I was able to see rainbows in many of the first-generation consumer 1-chip DLP units, but not with the faster wheels and multi-segmented wheels used now in consumer products.

Fortunately, all D-Cinema DLP units are 3-chip designs!

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Lyle Romer
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1400
From: Davie, FL, USA
Registered: May 2002

posted 06-08-2006 03:49 PM

quote: Scott Jentsch
3-chip DLP creates color by sending each of the three primaries for a certain amount of time to attain the depth of color needed. I would imagine that the refresh rate of each DLP mirror is extremely high to correctly modulate the right amount of light per primary.

I understand that but what I don't understand is how my brain knows when that time period has begun so that it will correspond to each frame. With LCD (or SXRD) my brain knows that the frame has changed because the intensity of each color component of a particular pixel has actually changed. With DLP, the intensity isn't changing, the amount of on/off time is. So how does my brain "syncronize" to the display and know when it is time for the next frame to begin?

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Carl Martin
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1424
From: Oakland, CA, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 06-09-2006 03:42 AM

i think, depending on how you define the word, that you're overestimating what your brain "knows", and certainly you're overestimating what it cares about. a lot of pre-processing of visual information happens before it reaches the optic nerve. i'd be surprised if your brain had any inkling of the temporal granularity of the dlp image.

on the other hand, a spinning color wheel is slow enough that those rainbow fringe effects happen when the brain (or whatever) fails to properly delimit the frames over which to "integrate". another related illusion is the slanting of crawling text on led signage.

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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

Posts: 4247
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 06-09-2006 12:59 PM

maybe i'm misunderstanding the question but i think you're overthinking this.

we don't experience the real world in frames, so the brain doesn't go looking for that when we see a movie.

quite the contrary. we don't perceive the frames even when they are in fact what we are seeing. we perceive motion and continuity.

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Bruce Hansen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 847
From: Stone Mountain, GA, USA
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 06-11-2006 12:16 PM

Our eyes retain things for about a tenth of a second. This is why we don't see the black screen while the shutter is in the light path. This is why we don't see the scanning of a CRT (along with a little retention that the CRT has). And this is why you see the very quick on-off cycles of the DLP mirrors as differences in light level, instead of on-off flashes.

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Tommie Evans
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 116
From: Birmingham, West Midlands, UK
Registered: Sep 2004

posted 06-12-2006 08:53 PM

Bruce. . .I believe you are talking about Persistance Of Vision [Big Grin]

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Cameron Glendinning
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 845
From: West Ryde, Sydney, NSW Australia
Registered: Dec 2005

posted 06-13-2006 08:03 AM

There are a few things I feel are a bit well silly about Digital cinema, The main one being why 24 frames a sec? Films biggest compromise. Any one who has seen Showscan at 60 frames a sec knows how much more realism is possable this way, to me its more like looking out a window. IMAX did attempt 48 frames per sec but 12 ft of 70mm per sec proved too much !!!!!! but aparently it was the most stunning 40 secs ever on a IMAX screen :-)

Ultimatly what we want is cinema to have a image better than avaliable at home.
Also I have been told that the 4K projector is made up of 4 seperate panels joined together, aparently you can even see the seams, any truth to this do you think?

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Lyle Romer
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1400
From: Davie, FL, USA
Registered: May 2002

posted 06-13-2006 08:26 AM

The 4k projector is not 4 separate panels joined together. If it was it would actually be 12 panels (3 each color).

If you want to see IMAX at 48 fps, go to Disney's California Adventure or Epcot and ride Soarin' (Soarin' over California is the name of the original at California adventure). And, yes, it does look great.

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Andrew McCrea
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 645
From: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 06-13-2006 12:46 PM

Oh-my-god! I went on the "Soarin' Over California" Ride about three times in February... I was pretty sure that was an IMAX dome, but didn't know it was 48fps.

Quite an experience! You have to try it out.

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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

Posts: 4247
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 06-13-2006 04:49 PM

quote: Cameron Glendinning
aparently you can even see the seams, any truth to this do you think?

no.

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Cameron Glendinning
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 845
From: West Ryde, Sydney, NSW Australia
Registered: Dec 2005

posted 06-14-2006 04:08 AM

Its quite amazing what salesmen will tell you (re no actual ie 4k panel,) The only d cinema projector I have seen, is the latest barco , which I actually thought looked great, but not as good as filmguarded 35!!!!! I look forward now to seeing the sony!

Im glad to hear that IMAX can do 48 frames now, Its been 7 years since I last worked with it. 12 ft of 70mm a second would be scary to me. I look forward to one being built in my hemisphere sometime. I imagine an eight story tall window!!

We just purchased a e cinema projector, a projectiondesign cineo 3 which looks suprisingly good with HD Tv on our 30 ft screen even though it is only 720 lines native. we can now run 35,16 & video.

I noticed that the Panasonic varicam HD camera shoots at 60 frames a sec and outputs 24 frames (allowing film like slow motion,) I think it would be far more interesting if they could somehow project this image at the 60 frames.

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Ron Curran
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 504
From: Springwood NSW Australia
Registered: Feb 2006

posted 06-15-2006 12:38 AM

4K capture, 2K presentation?

Many films are now being scanned in 4K. Devices like the Red Digital Cinema camera with its 12 megapixel sensor will be capable of 4,520 x 2,450 acquisition.

Does this mean that, by the time DC rolls out further at its 2K standard it will be like showing 35mm movies with 16mm projectors?

I am still getting my head around the whole Digital Cinema proposition.

Meanwhile, Fuji has emulated Kodak with some brilliant new film stocks and Arri has introduced a new Super 16 camera … looks like we are in for parallel film/digital development for quite some time.

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John Koutsoumis
Master Film Handler

Posts: 261
From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 06-15-2006 02:59 AM

quote: Cameron Glendinning
I noticed that the Panasonic varicam HD camera shoots at 60 frames a sec and outputs 24 frames (allowing film like slow motion,) I think it would be far more interesting if they could somehow project this image at the 60 frames.

Why HD? The Panavision / Photosonics 4E Camera can shoot up to 360 f.p.s variable (non-sync though). There are 16mm camera's that can whiz up to 500 f.p.s. [Wink]

Now try and project that on your 30ft screen [Eek!]

There is endless possibilities with film no need to go digital. But this is the fast paced "convenience" age.

quote:
Ultimately what we want is cinema to have a image better than available at home.

Bleh, you can have as much "resolution" on your screen as you like but it won't get me off my comfy sofa.

I'll wait until the impending return of 70mm (and better ideas/stories). Ah...yes...waiting "Hey Marge...get me a refill...coffee" [Embarrassed]

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Cameron Glendinning
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 845
From: West Ryde, Sydney, NSW Australia
Registered: Dec 2005

posted 06-29-2006 01:55 AM

I have double checked, the Sony 4k is made up of 12 panels. 3x 4 panel. Apparently if it crashes you can see the 4 separate panels. It is seamless in operation normally. This occurred during a demo at the Australian Television and Radio school. Issues of low light level were raised. Overall it was considered impressive. At A$8 dollars per hour for the bulb very expensive to run.

[ 06-29-2006, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: Cameron Glendinning ]

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Lyle Romer
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1400
From: Davie, FL, USA
Registered: May 2002

posted 07-03-2006 11:18 AM

quote: Cameron Glendinning
I have double checked, the Sony 4k is made up of 12 panels.

I'm 99% sure that it isn't 4 physically separate panels per color. The single 4k chip (per color) can be driven with 4 "panels" of 1080p resolution content.

The projector can display either one 4k image or four 2k images simultaneously.

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