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This topic comprises 4 pages: 1 2 3 4
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Author
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Topic: Drive-In questions
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Frank Angel
Film God
Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 12-28-2007 02:20 AM
quote: Ron Funderburg
We put a lot of money in on a remodel and put in Digital sound the grosses being up tells me we are doing something right.
I always wondered about that in a DI --Given that sound it piped thru an FM transmitter and the dynamic range of that FM transmission/receiver system really precludes using anywhere near the digital system's full dynamic range (in fact, some operators find they need to install compressors to actually REDUCE the dynamic range to the transmitter so as to avoid overmodulation, distortion and the like), the thought that runs thru my mind is, wouldn't spending $$ on installing digital be money wasted -- especially in a business that is not turning over large surpluses?
Can an audience listening on a car FM radio, no matter how good it is, can they actually, REALLY tell the difference between a good SR playback and digital? I mean good in the sence that it is preceived as a real improvement instead of just, "Oh, babe, this DI has digital sound....it must be good." Not that that kind of positive perception, even if it is imaginary, can't translate into less tangible things like patron loyalty, the patron feeling they get more for their money at your DI as opposed to the competion. Just wondering.
And the reason I ask is that, all I know is, when my DTS drops out and SR kicks in, my SR is tweaked to as good as that system can put out and I'll be damned if anyone in the theatre to a person can tell which is which, except for the Ls / Rs separation....but of course you wouldn't even have surround in an FM reception.
I'd put my money in Dolby's Virtual Surround, where a surround channel is actually simulated with just two speakers. I think that would have more of a WOW factor than digital. I think it would be much more noticeable than getting digital off the film tracks. And since the Virtual Surround is processed in the digital domain, you can always SAY you have digital sound....and you won't go to hell for saying it either. ![[evil]](graemlins/evil.gif)
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Jack Ondracek
Film God
Posts: 2348
From: Port Orchard, WA, USA
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 12-28-2007 10:49 AM
quote: Mike Blakesley
Why would you stop taking checks when starting to take credit cards? You're giving up 2 to 4% of the credit card sale, whereas you give up $0 on checks.
Monte nailed it, Mike. We aren't in an area where we know most of our customers. We had people bounce checks as low as $4. When those come back it's hard to get anyone to take it seriously. I'm not interested in confronting these people myself, so it's either the cops or a check guarantee company. A bounced check is worth $300 plus 3 times the face value in this state, and the police are supposed to go get it for you. If the "bounce-er" didn't have $4, he/she probably doesn't have $312 plus the $40 NSF fee that just got dumped on the account.
Then there's the time it takes to ID the customer... pull out the drivers license, write all the info down, hope the license is current and they haven't moved. Check guarantee companies don't eliminate the transaction time, and they add monthly fees.
Credit cards are a way of life here. EVERYBODY has one. The fees are about the only downside, and are a business expense, as far as I'm concerned. They process as fast as cash and the customers frequently pull them out first. They also spend more when they can use their plastic. We see that here all the time.
quote: Ron Funderburg
Well this guy doesn't have to re-invent the Drive it worked great under the previous operator
Privileges of ownership! ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
quote: Frank Angel
I always wondered about that in a DI --Given that sound it piped thru an FM transmitter and the dynamic range of that FM transmission/receiver system really precludes using anywhere near the digital system's full dynamic range
We've chatted that one here, I think.
Yes. On the surface, SR should be (and is) more than a drive-in NEEDS and can handle. Drive-ins also used to have cheesie 4-inch window speakers, and a lot of people were fine with that.
Some of it can be applied to "bragging rights", I guess. On the other hand, if you have the ability to switch between digital and REAL Dolby SR, there are differences you can hear.
A drive-in would need compression with anything except maybe unprocessed analog sound. Running multiple sources almost makes compression/limiting a necessity. SR is said to have near 80dB range. Digital has more. You don't get much more than 40 out of FM, so a system without limiters always have the ability to overdrive a transmitter... either that, or your customers would always be twiddling with the volume control.
Digital has less distortion. The highs are better, you don't have any issues with analog wow & flutter. There is a difference, though it might not be the best first-purchase for a drive-in without the equipment to process and transmit it. Digital can be a pain for those who prefer to load their film and just hit the start button. Your projectors have to be in good shape and kept clean. There's additional equipment to maintain and keep aligned and, if you have DTS, there's the worry over whether you get the disks or not. The difference in quality has been worth the extra effort, AFAIC. However, I will admit that if your equipment is up to the job and you've done your splices right, it's not likely that a lot of people would listen to your SR and be bummed that you weren't digital.
Digital would not be my first upgrade choice for a drive-in that's sending the output if it's old Motiograph, RCA or Radio Shack speaker amps to the transmitter... and from what I've seen, there are still plenty of them out there.
quote: Monte L Fullmer
Prob, with DTS in a Drive-In is to plumb L,C,R,S (4 channel conversion of the DTS unit by switching the surrounds to mono output) from the processor into a mixer to shoot out two channels into the FM transmitter, and boost up the wattage to a 1 watt coverage.
This is really pretty simple, Monte. Behringer has several desktop and rack-mounted mixers that will do that very easily. The mixers are pretty common. You just have to have one that has active inputs and has enough channels to handle the need. With those mixers you can pull dual-channel mono outputs from single feeds without any loss of separation on the stereo channels. You can use the same process to make your surrounds "mono".
Transmitter output has nothing to do with whether you have digital sound. Matter of fact, one watt is way over the maximum you can legally use anyway, though that's another subject. If you had a TOTALLY quiet channel... like 87.9 in areas without channel 6, you could just about cover a drive-in with a "talking real estate" box. Transmitters that are designed to put out less than a watt are usually designed for the hobbyist, and are of fairly low quality. Up over a watt, you're usually dealing with equipment that radio stations and cable systems could use, so it's more likely you're buying something that performs well and will last.
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Jack Ondracek
Film God
Posts: 2348
From: Port Orchard, WA, USA
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 12-31-2007 04:26 AM
I think it's too soon to tell, Monte. There's been a lot of talk over the past 2 or 3 years, but nobody has actually landed a digital projector at a drive-in as of yet.
As far as your question goes, I'd speculate that anyone's answer right now would be at least 90% speculation... maybe more.
I've always felt that the time to get excited is after the big boys (like Regal & AMC) line up and really get going on full-scale national conversion, instead of putting 2 or 3 projectors in a new 24-screen build and sprinkling a few more here and there. Until then, we're way below the radar. On the other hand, there are those who feel that drive-ins should be more proactive, so they don't get lost in the shuffle. Either way, nothing seems to be cast in stone right now, so your opinion is probably as good as anyone else's.
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Cameron Glendinning
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 845
From: West Ryde, Sydney, NSW Australia
Registered: Dec 2005
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posted 12-31-2007 04:35 PM
quote:
I'd put my money in Dolby's Virtual Surround, where a surround channel is actually simulated with just two speakers. I think that would have more of a WOW factor than digital. I think it would be much more noticeable than getting digital off the film tracks. And since the Virtual Surround is processed in the digital domain, you can always SAY you have digital sound....and you won't go to hell for saying it either. [evil]
20 year old Realsistic graphic equalisers from radio shack featured IMX expaders, which would play with the phasing and create a virtual dolby experience out of 2 channels. I've even used it to create surround channels in recordings for playback in IMAX venues.
quote:
Digital has less distortion. The highs are better,
mmmm, I dont agree with this comment anymore, since the introduction of red light readers, SR analogue sound has vastly improved highs, wow and flutter is not a big issue for many projectors. Overall the results can be stunning
Dolby digitals lossy based compression (average 17 to 1) does mean that subtle audio details can be lost, which will not happen in genuine SR. Most car stereos and FM radio though will be the weak link.
Bragging rights though are the true value and a very real commodity worth every cent invested. If and when you spend money, make sure the audience knows.
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Jack Ondracek
Film God
Posts: 2348
From: Port Orchard, WA, USA
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 01-01-2008 12:16 PM
quote: Monte L Fullmer
But, is it really worth it do do digital sound under the stars while watching a movie?
Totally subjective, Monte. As you can see, everyone you ask will give you a different answer. We all look at it from our personal perspectives. Cameron's response isn't necessarily wrong, as he sees it, though his take might send you in another direction than mine.
Is it worth it? Jack says "yes". However, all the ducks had lined up for me when I decided to go that route. If you have other priorities or you don't have the money, you can rationalize that nobody can hear whatever your system lacks that mine doesn't. You'll probably be right. Most customers won't know what they aren't hearing (there's no A/B comparison), so they'll take what comes out of their car as being the way it is. Unless it's awful, they might not even think about it. How can you make rational judgments when there's no consistent baseline? EVERY car out here has a sound system that's unique, given the radio, speakers and interior acoustics. Even the number of people in the car and their positions will change how it sounds in there. We have much less control over what they hear than an indoor theatre.
Many of the regulars here are professionals, who obsess over nuance. Ironically, OWNERS tend not to be so focused. The "big picture" is more important to them. Granted, some can be pretty cheap. When I bought this place, it had unprocessed analog sound, through the mic inputs of Bogen public address amplifiers, feeding 4" speakers mounted in acoustically inferior metal window boxes. Those speakers sat outside, slowly corroding in our wonderful Northwest weather. Every speaker sounded different, and the ants, bees and spiders all did their best to add to the adventure. During those years, not one customer ever commented about my lack of thundering bass or stratospheric highs, though I had my own set of words to describe it. If the speaker worked at all, that part of the night was good enough.
My sound is just part of the total package here. It's a part of my place that I've put more focus on than other drive-ins tend to. Other ozoners have much nicer-looking snack bars, better pavement, more recent paint, landscaping, carnivals, live horse rides, motels on-site, dancing Las Vegas showgirls at half-time. Didn't (don't) you do barbecue? I don't. Maybe that makes your place better than mine... at least as far as you see it.
I know of a couple of drive-ins (one owner posts here a lot) that feed their analog readers through Smart boxes, then into TX transmitters that have only wideband comp/limiters to maintain modulation. I've been to one of them, and it sounds pretty good. I doubt that either one looses sleep because they don't have the digital playback boxes, multiband broadcast audio processors and the computer-controlled automation and music playback that I have. If anything, they might correctly feel that their booth is a lot easier to keep going than mine is!
For myself, I'll put my picture, sound, food and staff against anyone else. In those areas, I don't think you can beat me, though the public might be just as happy with your place as mine. If you're a decent operator, you should feel the same about your place.
Bottom line... if you have the money to burn, sure... get digital. But first, make sure your toilets all flush! ![[beer]](graemlins/beer.gif)
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Frank Angel
Film God
Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 01-01-2008 07:37 PM
quote: Cameron Glendinning
20 year old Realsistic graphic equalisers from radio shack featured IMX expaders, which would play with the phasing and create a virtual dolby experience out of 2 channels. I've even used it to create surround channels in recordings for playback in IMAX venues.
Ah yes, but that won't allow you to use the Dolby Virtural Surround logo as a marketing tool or as Jack put it as "bragging rights" which is at the core of any improvement you make in the theatre business. Promotion, promotion, promotion!
I know if I owned a DI, I would certainly want to make a BIG deal that I was giving them Surround Sound, just like the indoors. Using a fairly inexpensive piece of comsumer equipment that uses the Dolby Virtual Surround chip (like Sony's DS800 Digital Surround processor), gets the added benefit of being able to use the Dolby logo in promos. I would shout it from the rooftops and get Filmack to make me a snipe faster than you could say "The First Drive-In Featuring Dolby Virtual Surround -- 5.1 Virtual Channels, Just as the Director Intend it to be Heard!"
 The Sony Digital Surround Processor features Dolby Virtual Surrond, will take L, C, R, Ls, Rs, from the digital processor and matrix it into a Lt, Rt signal for the FM transmitter OR, it will take the Lt Rt matrixed analog signal from an analog processor and process it with its Virtual Surround chip so that when played thru two speakers, you get what was already the surround signal in the Lt and Rt channels to sound like it's coming from behind you in the car. Lots of computer sound cards and TV sets us this and it is quite impressive - makes you actually turn your head on occasion.
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