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This topic comprises 4 pages: 1 2 3 4
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Author
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Topic: film companies have no idea what movie theatres DO
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Jack Ondracek
Film God
Posts: 2348
From: Port Orchard, WA, USA
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 10-14-2012 11:43 AM
quote: Randy Stankey
Now, we're talking about digital cinema technology that is largely untested as compared to film or even DVD/Blu-Ray players. Engineers and designers have gone to great lengths to be sure that these machines are as reliable as possible. Still, hard drives crash. Computers crash. Things go wrong and there is no way to prevent them from going wrong.
Maybe this is a bit off-topic, but it comes up enough to bother me.
I fully understand the group I'm asking, and its loyalty to all-things-film. However, I wonder at what point would you guys suggest that it's time to set aside the "digital stuff is untested - unproven" argument? Sometimes, I feel like this will come up until the computer gear has been around 100 years... probably not likely.
Frankly, I doubt there's an agreeable number, making the argument a perpetually convenient go-to.
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Melanie Loggins
Expert Film Handler
Posts: 154
From: Wayne, NE, USA
Registered: Aug 2011
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posted 10-14-2012 12:17 PM
quote: Mike Frese
Why open on Thursdays? I can see many headaches from that. Box office reporting, national Internet showtimes listings.
Yeah, it's a serious pain in the ass. Being digital is the only thing that gives me fighting shot at getting movies. The short version is, it was not my decision. That decision was made - and widely advertised in our fundraising material - before I was fully on board. The reasoning was that we have a college in town whose students party on Thursdays because 75% of them go home for the weekend, and we would miss out on that business. In reality, they are not a huge part of our normal audience or, if they are, they're the ones who stay in town all weekend anyway. Our Thursdays are very hit-and-miss. The theatre seats 154, and sometimes, like this weekend, we have 86 people, which is fantastic, because sometimes we have 19. But now that our schedule has been what it is for 2 years, to cut that Thursday show would look like a budget cut and potentially send the wrong message. So, I wait an extra week sometimes for a movie and get paperwork done on Thursday nights. It's all good.
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Randy Stankey
Film God
Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 10-14-2012 01:30 PM
quote: Jack Ondracek
I fully understand the group I'm asking, and its loyalty to all-things-film. However, I wonder at what point would you guys suggest that it's time to set aside the "digital stuff is untested - unproven" argument? Sometimes, I feel like this will come up until the computer gear has been around 100 years... probably not likely.
I understand what you're talking about but my arguement is about the "digital cliff." You often don't know that a digital movie has gone wrong until it's too late.
With film, you can see the meida and, if there is a problem, you usually have a chance to fix it beforehand. With digital, you can't see the data. You have little or no chance to decide if there is a problem and what to do about it until after something bad has happened.
I can't count the number of times a DVD, a Blu-Ray, a player, a digital file, a computer, a digital projector or some type of digital equipment has gone wrong right before a show and left me in the lurch.
I try hard to make all my presentations as good as I can and I hate the feeling that people are looking down their nose at me when something digital decides to spite me. I always get questioned afterward and the only thing I can do is put my hands in the air and say, "Sometimes computers crash."
(I HATE having to say that!)
There are always the questions: Can you clean the disk? Can you check the hard drive? Can you pre-screen the show? Can you do X, Y or Z?"
Yes, I do those things but, even when I do, there are STILL unexpected problems and the questions start all over again.
I can not say that I have fewer problems with film than digital movies but, most often, there is something I can do when things go wrong: I can fix a splice. I can reframe. I can quickly readjust the projector, the platter or film rollers.
I have reset film loops while the projector was running. I have fixed exciter lamps or analog sound readers, barely missing a beat. I have tweaked settings on Dolby Digtal or DTS units without interrupting the show.
Not to say that you can't make such adjustments while the show is going but you usually can't directly observe your actions and make adjustments without risking substantial interruption to the show.
Even if I do interrupt a film presentation, I can pick up again, virtually where I left off.
Blow up a Blu-Ray presentation and you have to wait for the player to boot, the disk to load and you have to go through all the trailers, advertisements and FBI warnings again before you can even search for the point in the movie where you left off.
With DCP, you have more flexibiltiy in this matter but you still have to do more fussing around to get back to your starting point than you do with film.
The movie industry, at large, has much more experience in dealing with problems that occur on film than they do with digital. I think this is evidenced in the several high profile failures that we have seen in recent news where digital movies have gone wrong, resulting in the cancellation of some important shows.
The main problem, as I see it, is not with the reliability or unreliability of one medium over another. It is with the experience we have of dealing with problems when they occur.
Maybe it will take 100 years for the movie undustry to develop that experience.
Until then, whether it takes 10 or 20 or more years, I think it's perfectly reasonable to request that studios let us pre-screen movies to make sure they are ready to be presented to a paying audience.
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Tony Bandiera Jr
Film God
Posts: 3067
From: Moreland Idaho
Registered: Apr 2004
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posted 10-15-2012 06:23 PM
quote: Edward Havens
Actually, Tony, it doesn't matter. Regardless of how one gets the file, one can see if the file is damaged or unplayable before one QCs the file.
You know Edward, you're the ONLY one looking like a fool right now because yet again you ignored one very important post that debunks what you keep saying:
quote: Mike Blakesley
The one movie I had trouble with would pass all the server's "tests" -- it would show in the list as being playable, the "quick verify" and regular verify test would pass, but it would still start the playlist over when the feature hit the 3:00-or-so mark. I've never had this happen again since but it DID happen and the only "sign" of trouble was the drive was very slow ingesting.
And, to be fair, even if your position was 100% correct, it does NOT change the fact that YOU can do an immediate download, where Melanie and most others have to WAIT for a replacement drive. What part of that very simple FACT are you unable to grasp?
You really need to let your personal hard-on against me go and man up and admit you are WRONG in this case. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Randy Stankey
Film God
Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 10-15-2012 06:49 PM
You can't verify a digital file until you play it: Any digital file, from any source, on any media or on any system whether it's a DCP, a DVD/Blu-Ray, a computer file, a digital tape, an internet download or anything.
The file can pass a CRC check. It can pass an MD5/SHA check. It can pass an on-disk verification. You can store it on a RAID system. You can use a journaled drive.
Maybe you got a "mathematically correct" file that checks out okay but, for some reason does not contain a complete movie? Maybe you got a complete movie but it's not formatted correctly. Maybe the metadata that ties the DCP package all together isn't correct so, even when the movie plays, it comes out wrong, somehow?
You can't see the "1s" and "0s" on the drive but, even if you could, you still can't tell if all those bits add up to a complete movie until you play them on the screen.
I'm not saying that these things happen with any more or less frequency than they would with film. In fact, theoretically, at least, these problems should happen LESS frequently with digital but that's not the point.
With a reel of film, I can check it. I can look at it. I can see if it's right. I can pre-screen it. If I so choose, I can look at every frame with a microscope.
I can take all reasonable means to ensure that I have done everything in my power to ensure that the customer gets to see the movie that he paid for, on time and, in good quality.
The movie studios go to great lengths to tell us that digital video will make all our problems seem to evaporate, that quality will be better and movies will be better than ever.
Then they turn around and tell us that we can't check our movies before the first showtime, we can't ensure that the customer gets his money's worth, we can't run our business the way we see fit and that we just have to trust them.
When was the last time you believed a Hollywood executive when he said, "Trust me."?
Maybe "undustry" was the right thing to call it? ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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Edward Havens
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 614
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: Mar 2008
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posted 10-15-2012 07:39 PM
I'm not ignoring it, Tony. In fact, you seem to have ignored something in the item you quoted from Mike: an admitted sign of trouble.
Look, I get you don't "like" me. That's cool. But you admittedly hate digital and you seemingly look for any excuse to show how "bad" digital can be. It makes anything you write about digital immediately tainted.
And you seem to ignore a very important part of the discussion: the fact that Melanie has not had a problem with digital, yet.
I hope she never does.
I admit I am fortunate to have these extra tools to get my films to my location quicker. But the one or two times I did have a legitimate issue with a hard drive or a download, I caught it quickly enough to get replacements before it caused a down show, because I pay attention to the details when I am doing my server work. I regularly check up on my ingests and uploads while I handle my other duties. Which is not to say anyone else is less observant or detail oriented. Just that I know the potential problems and try to make sure they happen as few times as possible.
Would it be nice to have keys unlock an extra day or two early? Hell yeah, it would. Would it be nice if studio reps had any idea of what movie theatres do? They actually do (a number of them have come from exhibition) but they just do what their company and their bosses tell them to do. Their companies and bosses are just doing whatever they can to minimize the very real problem of piracy. Does piracy come from theatres doing QC shows? I have seen zero evidence of it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't now nor does it mean it wouldn't happen more if keys unlocked a day or two earlier. Frankly, I don't understand why I need keys for movies like Lawrence of Arabia or The Godfather, but I do, and those studios have very right to protect their copyrighted material as they see fit. And theatre operators have the right to not play the materials of those studios who they feel are not playing fair.
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