You can just TELL when they are putting forth an honest effort to answer the problem. Maybe they'll get it right, maybe they won't. If they don't, they'll try again. Perhaps they just can't get the right answer. I don't know why. Maybe they were out of school one day when the teacher explained something. It doesn't really matter why. The kid won't be happy that he couldn't get the answer but he'll know that if he doesn't go on to the next problem he won't get ANY of his homework done. (Maybe you would remind him of that?)

Now, take another kid. He just sits there and wastes time hoping you go away. You get fed up and start trying to "prompt" him. It takes a few minutes to get the ball rolling and the answer ends up being right. Truth is YOU did the homework and HE didn't really learn anything... BUT he got the right answer (!)

Which hypothetical kid is the "better" one? The one who got the right answer but didn't learn? Or the one who didn't get the right answer, even though he tried?

Okay, this might be a thin example but what I'm trying to show is that a good, honest effort IS worth something. However, I make it clear that making a furtive effort and then just throwing up your hands and saying, "Oh, I tried..." is NOT acceptable.

In the context of this forum, I would expect that TRY means to reread your post before hitting the submit button. Maybe if you didn't catch a mistake, you'll go back and edit it. Maybe there are ones you just don't find. Maybe you couldn't figure out how to spell a word and then typed your best educated guess and then added "(Sp?)". It's often pretty easy to tell the people who do these things, isn't it? You can tell who the "wankers" are, almost from the start, can't you?

Let's face it. This isn't writing for the Pulitzer prize here. If we spent time to reread every single letter of every single word we wouldn't get a whole lot accomplished. I think there sould be a certain amount of slack built in for errors.

Learning how to learn is a priority, and public schools have lost the ability to show how that is done. Huge schools and overloaded teachers do not make for educated students.

As a manager in Vermont, I had theoretical physics students, second year film students, a television producer, and others of that educational level on the staff. The professionalism was outstanding, and things ran like clockwork.

When I first moved to the south I was dismayed at the level of education of those applying for work. Birmingham students just weren't any where near as well educated, but they did have a terrific work ethic and a willingness to learn.

When I moved again to Miami, it was another world entirely. The average employee in the theatres was lazy, uneducated, and unmotivated. I had employees threaten me that if I made them work they would get physical revenge, I had employees that couldn't count, I had one group of employees that walked off the job en-masse during a sellout show just to show their power. (Which was a totally fruit-loop childish idea, since they didn't have any jobs after that, and got bad references to boot.) Eventually I was able to get a better quality employee base in that particular theatre, but it was never great.

When I became D.M. for Wometco, one of the first things I did was review all employee applications and set up some minimum standards for hiring. You would not believe some of the applications that were submitted.

Major circuits simply don't know the difference in employee quality in different areas.

I worked for a short time for Wometco at one of their TV stations. The station was sold shortly thereafter and I kept the old Wometco logo artwork when the new owners started tossing everything. It's here in storage somewhere.

On the subject of spelling...

I have been known to write some never-ending sentences here on Film-Tech, and so have most of you.

I am here to read what all you have to say so that I can learn from you. I have to say that I have noticed some errors in some of the posts, but I would never bring it to the attention of the forum.

My mama raised me to respect others and treat people the way I would want to be treated by them.

We exchange alot of ideas here on this forum, which by the way, is the greatest! I'd hate for newcomers to read this thread and decide NOT to post simply because he/she is embarassed by his/her spelling skills.

I have never enjoyed speaking before a group of people. I just freeze up and get tongue-tied.

But, I do post here.

If someone started getting on to me about errors and mistakes in grammar, I'd probably stop coming here.

I love talking to all Film-Tech'ers. But this thread could make me think before I post...

Not everyone paid attention in grade school, unfortunately. Southerners are no more slow than anyone else. I've met some real live-ones from "up north!"

I am just so sure that Jerry hemmed and hawwed before he made his original posting on this thread and that he had concerns that his post might possibly have a negative effect on someone -- just like the one it had on you. But he was real careful to essentially say "please read your posts before you hit send," or barring that, edit it after you re-read it later on.

I currently have a job that requires me to edit the often-technical writings of others. And let me tell you: I sure wish I had paid more attention in English class. I've only recently become more aware of my own split infinitives and with the proper use of "which" versus "that". And I don't get it right every time.

But the point I'm attempting to make here and the one that I think Jerry was saying is that many of the posts have errors that just about ANYONE would recognize. It's just that rush to hit "send" that leads to many errors.

I'm just about as forgiving as the next guy when I see errors in writing, but I can't tell you how many times I've read and re-read a sentence and realised that ONE WORD was making all the difference in the world to the meaning of that sentence, and often the word is "not" or "no" or some negative term. So, for instance, when the instructions tell you NOT to plug the equipment in until after you have re-assembled it, and the "NOT" is missing, it can lead to problems.

And it's not just on web sites that these errors crop up. The WASHINGTON POST is FULL of grammar, punctuation, and spelling errors. SPELLING ERRORS!! -- Don't they at least have a spell checker? It's nuts! The POST is allegedly written for a less than high school-level reader, so when I have to stop and re-read a sentence in mid-paragraph, I know that they made some error somewhere, which I then spend time to ferret out. It shouldn't be like that.

Let's see ... where was I going with this? AHHH ... Jerry, myself, and others are just saying that we love to read the words of wisdom of others, but if the message is garbled, it leaves us very frustrated and means that the efforts of the writer were wasted. With the collective knowledge of the members of this forum, THAT'S a darn shame

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When I moved again to Miami, it was another world entirely. The average employee in the theatres was lazy, uneducated, and unmotivated.

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I have had almost the exact same experience when I moved here. I just couldn't believe how bad some people are. There are a lot of well educated people here but sometimes it's easy to let one bad apple spoil the whole bunch, if you know what I mean.

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I had one group of employees that walked off the job en-masse during a sellout show just to show their power.

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Same thing happened in one of the places I work at! The Usher-B (who was on his "last legs" to begin with) clocked in at 6pm and walked out the door about 1/2 hour later and didn't tell anybody. Nobody knew he'd left until movies started comming up late. It just so happened I came to that theatre for a PM call. I had just walked in the door when the GM told me what happened. So the two of us went upstairs and took care of the booth for the rest of the night. Later on that night I went outside to have a smoke between sets and there's the kid who quit, driving through the lot with a couple of his friends from work. They were drunk. Cimenark has a very strict no drinking policy. (As it should be) Since they were intoxicated on company property they were all fired. It turned out that a couple of other kids knew about this whole thing. I think some of them were supposed to walk out too but chickened out. All of them got called into the office and were disciplined. I think one of them got canned. In the mean time, the manager made it known to all that their little plan backfired on them. Honestly I think this whole thing is rather funny!

PS: I have since learned that it is a good idea to "run" a booth yourself once in a while. There are a whole lot of little things you'll find that need to be fixed that way. You might not find them otherwise.

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Which hypothetical kid is the "better" one? The one who got the right answer but didn't learn? Or the one who didn't get the right answer, even though he tried?

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I maintain that it is not enough to try; you must DO.

If other people can write in one blurb and then leave, with their message fully comprehendable, that's wonderful! I greatly admire someone who can do that. I go over my words, sentences, and paragraphs with a magnifying glass because I HAVE to. That is how I DO.

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Better Projection Pays!

I worked for Wometco after the K.K.R. breakup, and never had a chance to meet the Colonel. The theatres had been run by an ex-GCC employee during and after that time. The horror stories I could tell are not nice. Placing blame on any one individual wouldn't be fair though. The breakup was huge, and the things that the old Wometco was involved in were incredibly diverse. Wometco had cable tv, television stations, production studios, theatres in Puerto Rico, Florida, and Alaska, wax museums, the Key West Conch Train, the Miami Seaquarium, a major vending and office cafeteria company, etc., etc. That any of them got proper management supervision from a man spread so thin is amazing.

I redesigned much of the WOMETCO theatre paperwork (with lots of input from the managers and office staff) from the ground up, starting from the day I arrived as a manager. The GCC bullshit forms were swamping the managers while the floor was being left unattended. Paperwork was only a minor part of the problem, but correcting it lifted some of the burden and helped get the ball rolling on other improvements. It took a couple of years before things started to come around, thanks to tremendous teamwork by everyone involved. By the time the remaining theatres were sold to Cobb, the managers were hiring better people, and not afraid to dump the losers. I'm proud of the improvements in Wometco theatres during those years. Enough about Wometco.

My comment on education wasn't meant to start a civil war. I still live in South Florida, but I've been around and my observations are from a comparable cross section of employees in the same industry. I stand by those observations, and don't fault the poor kids that get stuck with sub-standard education. The problem is recognized here in Florida by everyone including the state legislature, so much that schools (not the kids - the schools) now get grades, and kids from underperforming schools are being given the chance to transfer out to other schools, and teachers at the worst schools are called on the carpet.

Florida, by constitution, has no income tax, and must balance the budget each year. There isn't enough money for education. Many schools are merely collections of portable housing (trailers). Those schools that _are_ permanent stink from mold and mildew. I've taken adult ed courses in one and walked through others. I don't know how kids stand being in those buildings. Teachers have to somehow teach kids that speak only Spanish or Creole right along with those that speak only English, and the flow of drugs through the area makes it a requirement that there are police officers at every school to slow the traffic. This is not conducive to education, through no fault of the kids.

Compare that to a school where class sizes were 30 students max, usually less than 20, in an isolated area where there was no incentive to skip school, no drugs available at any price, and the teachers expected most of the seniors to go on to college or at least junior college, and demanded each kid give his or her best. The difference in schooling is there. Southern parents with money pay to provide kids what we got for free, and those Florida parents without money entrust their kids to a terrible system. Reality sucks, and saying it ain't so won't make it any better.

RE: Causing people to not post for fear of being critisized - I respectfully disagree with the concept. I posted because I couldn't read a particular post that had a single paragraph fully eight or more paragraphs long. Darryl broke that post up into readable chunks and was very gracious in how he handled what I had meant as constructive critisism. I was then able to read the post and became a happy camper.

If you re-read the first post, you'll note that I specifically said:

"This isn't English class, and I hope folks don't think I'm going off the deep end, but I do want to be able to read what people are trying to say. Thanks."

I guess I wasn't clear enough, or I confused the issue with some nit-picking I did in jest after that post, but please note the smilies that accompany those jests. I hope you continue to post, and I hope that others aren't turned off from posting (unless their posts turn out to be totally unreadable ).

Anyone with a burning desire to become better at their profession has to be willing to suffer a little in obtaining that goal. Edison didn't get the light bulb right the first time, Churchill and Einstein weren't great students, and Dan Quayle... well, nevermind Dan Quayle. I think you get my point.

Many spelling errors are simply "typos", and we all have that problem from time to time.

Just like the word, "hemorrhoid" - who cares if it is not spelled correctly? You would be surprised how many people can't spell some words.

As long as the thought is conveyed, that's what counts.

The post I made earlier about 18 and 19 year-olds clearly indicates some can't spell worth a hoot. But I can say the worst speller of the two was a very careful projectionist, (and a very good one at that) and actually took pride in what he did. I can't ask any more than that from a person.

That post about the salesperson unable to make change was great.

I think the advent of the "amount tendered" button on cash registers made change-counting a lost art.

My brother in law owns a grocery store. One of his employees sold $2.57 worth of stuff, and received a five dollar bill from the customer....but by mistake, she punched in $50.00 as the amount tendered. The machine showed that $47.43 was due in change, so that's what the cashier gave him! (Needless to say, she's no longer employed there.)

I know there are a ton of stupid people in the business world but I've never seen one THAT stupid before!

As for this thread about grammar, etc. I'd just like to suggest that paragraphs be kept short. A big long paragraph is harder to read. Three or four sentences is a good length; just look at a newspaper.

I abosultely agree that coddling kids who fail by saying, "That's okay because you tried." does not promote learning. They weren't made to "attack" the problem and gain experience (in the subject area). When a student can't get the right answer the "proper" way to handle it would be to say, "No, that's not right... try again." If they can't get it after a few tries then you, as the teacher, should take a different approach. Maybe you should "rephrase" the problem. Maybe you should move on to another problem and come back to the original problem later. Maybe you should abandon the problem all together. If you don't do something you'll only succeed in frustrating the student and impede learning.

Now, to bring this back to the subject at hand, when somebody is writing a post to the internet or an e-mail it might be said that he is in the position of being his own teacher. When faced with a problem, (in this case, it is writing in English) he must realize when mistakes are being made and look for a solution. As pointed out above that solution could possibly include having to leave a word misspelled or making an error in grammar. When this happens, the person should somehow point it out. Maybe by marking the word as being misspelled. After all the real task is to get a message across. Belaboring a small mistake just gets in the way.

All this having been said; I think it's easy to tell who is putting forth the effort and who isn't. Again, I say that those who I perceive to be making an honest effort get slack from me. Those who I do not perceive as making an honest effort get no slack.

I don't think anybody would disagree that posting to the 'net has a lot more room for error in spelling and grammar. Few people can type with the skill of a stenographer / secretary or write with the eloquence of a professional writer.

Your replies have enlightened my thinking. YOU are absolutely right. I did jump the gun and go off half-cocked....Something that I am famous for....

As far as driving people away, I've never known anyone to not post for fear of looking stupid in regards to grammatical errors, but I do know of a some people that could offer the gang here a lot, but do not post because they are afraid that something they write will be incorrect or live in fear of what their boss might say about participating on a public forum. This to me is sad, as EVERYONE makes mistakes. This can be proved on any thread that deals with a troubleshooting problem. Absolutely every member who has attempted to assist with someone else's problem (almost always without quite enough information to offer an absolute solution) has posted a recommendation at one point or another that turned out to be wrong. One would think that people are above this, but apparently not. Also bothersome is any company that will frown upon an employee participate for whatever bizarre reason about being misrepresented. But what can be done? Nothing that I know of. Still, I would rather have a lot of posts with grammatical errors on them that would add to the overall information passed through these forums than not hear from those people at all. There are lots of extremely smart people who know an awful lot in the field of projection that cannot type or spell worth a damn. While I agree that spelling and grammatical errors are important to professionalism, I also don't want to see those people leave based on something like this.

So my question is...if I figured out how to incorporate a spell checker into the forum's program, would it be used enough to warrant the time and hassle of coding it in? I am not exactly a master wizard of Perl, Java and the whole "raw code" thing to begin with, but I will put forth the effort to add it if the members want and will use it.

When I am on one of my other computers that does not use two monitors, I would definately use your spell check if it was in your program.

Paul

Is the computer that does not use dual monitors capable of running more than one program simultaneously? If so, then you can still pull up Word and check your crappy spelling Just put an alias to Word on the Windows taskbar at the bottom of the screen... just one clicky-poo away!

Aren't dual monitors cool? I love being able to move the mouse pointer back and forth between the two screens, and drag files and windows back and forth as well. Aaahhh, the freedom!