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This topic comprises 5 pages: 1  2  3  4  5 
 
Author Topic: Comparison of digital formats
John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 06-22-2001 03:45 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The technique of combining multiple images to reduce noise or graininess has been used in practice. In video, "dropout compensators" use adjacent picture information if there is a dropout. In film, multiple intermediate elements have sometimes been made, and recombined to reduce the grain contribution from each element.

"Digital Intermediate" where film is scanned, digitally manipulated, then output back to film, offers immense flexibility in manipulating and enhancing the image, including sharpening and grain reduction:
Digital Intermediate
Kodak's Glenn Kennel Talks About Digital Intermediate
O Brother Where Art Thou?
Kodak and the Future

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Evans A Criswell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1579
From: Huntsville, AL, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 06-22-2001 05:12 PM      Profile for Evans A Criswell   Author's Homepage   Email Evans A Criswell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:

As early as the sixties, NASA reported on a precise technique to refocus poorly focused images based on weighted averaging. Some of the current imaging programs use a popularized version of that technique in their "sharpen" filters.

Is this a convolution technique that you're referring to, or another, more complex technique?

Most sharpening filters in today's software are implemented as convolution masks, which is a weighted average of points within a square neighborhood of each given point in the image. Believe it or not, if you're willing to make the convolution mask large enough, it is possible to implement nearly any frequency-domain filter in spatial domain by finding a convolution mask using a least-squares approach which approximates the frequency function. The main reason that NASA is interested in doing such processing in spatial domain rather than in frequency domain is that convolution can be done as new scan lines of the image data become available for processing, and it's straightforward to implement, although for large images and convolution masks, can get very computationally expensive. Try convolving a 1024 by 1024 image with a 1024 by 1024 convolution mask without using FFTs and IFFTS to convert to a frequency-domain point-by-point multiplication of the transforms. Normally, small convolution masks, such as 3x3, 5x5, 7x7, are used, which don't create such a computational burden, and small masks can give surprisingly good blurring or sharpening results.

About the thresholding you mentioned on the image averaging topic: The more knowledge you have about the actual noise, the better off you are in being able to improve the algorithm. If you know that the noise is not random all of the time, and "dropouts" or "spikes" occur in small parts of the image, then throwing out any point outside a certain range of the median of a point's neighborhood, or the median of the point's value from all of the images, will result in a better average. However, this improvement assumes more knowledge about the nature of the noise than assuming it is random. If the noise is truly random and you have absolutely no other information about it, then you're just as well off doing a straight average. If you can determine a good approximation of the standard deviation of the noise, then you have a good basis for determining a reasonable threshold to use in rejecting bad points.


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Jerry Chase
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1068
From: Margate, FL, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 06-22-2001 09:17 PM      Profile for Jerry Chase   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As I was saying before the film-tech server splashed...

Common sharpening filters are edge enhancement oriented, which is a weak form of enhancement.

From Photoshop help:
"The Unsharp Mask filter locates every two adjacent pixels with a difference in brightness values that you specify, and then increases the pixels’ contrast by an amount that you specify. In addition, you specify the number of surrounding pixels to which the sharpening effect is applied."

Now to describe the NASA system, as I remember it. I couldn't find the old paper abstract, and I am not a math whiz, so I'll try to describe the concept in lay terms.

The first part was a recognition that each lens is different and it was ideal if the original lens could be on hand to examine it's individual characteristics. However, the general concept could be applied to any lens that had an out-of-focus image.

The concept relied on the out-of-focus image being more or less on a single depth plane. It took the known circle of confusion for a specular and used that as a template for a circle, where if there was evidence of a similar circle on the image, that circle would be negated and a corresponding point source inserted at the center. That point became a wild card in further image extrapolations.

You can visualize one of the patterns involved by viewing the airy disk found in a defocused telescope. A star is for all intents a near perfect point source of light, so the rings found when it is defocused in a telescope gives an indicator of exactly how that lens system will deform any defocused image.
Star Test

Next, you can see a diagram of how an image that is defocused will subtend a larger area on the negative.
Auto focus example The important points to remember are that the defocused point image will be circular and there will be a pattern to the brightness in the circle, generally with the center being brightest, with a tapering off to the edge, where the diffraction pattern will form "ripples."

The weighting to negate the defocused bright spot is actually close to an inverse of the diffraction chart shown on this site Lens Tutorial

As I remember, the idea was to pick the peak speculars first, correct them, then notch down a level and correct the next brightest speculars and so on, each time checking for the presense of the characteristic pattern. The process continued to the limits of the resolution and gamma curve of the film.

I see all the math on the sites, but I'll confess it is beyond me and I have little interest in massaging the figures to verify the concept. I have no doubt that it would work on a star field, and I suspect it would work quite well on high contrast subjects photographed out of focus on high resolution film. It would work poorly on low res. digital images.

Finally, as I remember, there was the idea of having different patterns for motion smearing, that would do much the same thing. I'm guessing that image enhancement techniques like this were used on the first Hubble images.

So much for that.

I disagree with you about averaging all points in truly random noise. Intuitively, it doesn't make sense. First, true randomness is surprisingly rare, and "random" noise may not be entirely random, but could follow a curve, making it possible as you suggest to toss out values outside of the median. In any case, the image itself is not random, and greater weight of importance needs to be given to values falling within the expected values of the image. I believe this is where the reduced contrast you were talking about creeps in to your enhanced images.

I'm not sure how the 'digital intermediate' as described falls within the center scope of this, although it is an interesting sidebar.

On the light side... When I see the "digital enhancement" of images of UFOs, I have two reactions. The first is to laugh out loud, since the enhancement is usually a cheesy and blocky false color image, and the second is to wonder just how many of these could be properly resolved by the use of a combination of the technique I just described and multi-image averaging. I suspect that a lot of planes and balloons and fakes could be found.

Whatever. I don't think I'm giving away any state secrets, since what I have related was in an early open NASA publication, and the technical expertise to pull this all off would have to be substantial.


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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 06-22-2001 10:34 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Hey, the server hasn't splashed. Sounds like an issue with your local ISP. No glitches here, senor.

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Jerry Chase
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1068
From: Margate, FL, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 06-23-2001 08:11 AM      Profile for Jerry Chase   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Puzzling, Brad. I couldn't get a refresh for quite a while and was able to access other sites quickly. As I often do to check things out, I went to anonymizer but couldn't load from there even with cookies enabled, so I then went to samspade.org which balked at first, then showed some of the code from film-tech.

Since the net address was probably already on my local drive when I was first having problems, I'm a little puzzled how such a problem could occur.

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Adam Martin
I'm not even gonna point out the irony.

Posts: 3686
From: Dallas, TX
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 06-23-2001 12:23 PM      Profile for Adam Martin   Author's Homepage   Email Adam Martin       Edit/Delete Post 
I have this same problem intermittantly at work. I'm on a T1 there through a proxy server (Win NT yuk) and assumed that the proxy was the problem. DNS finds the IP address and the page, then takes forever and a day to load the page. Local net traffic doesn't matter ... 9am or 9pm at the museum. At the same time, I can go to other sites with no delays.

When I access at home on a dialup through a different ISP, it's all good.

Brad, next time I have a delay problem, I'll email you the time and my IP address so you can check the request logs.

Now back to our regularly scheduled topic ...


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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-23-2001 12:32 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Adam - trying pinging www.film-tech.com the next time you have a problem and let me know what the delay is. Is there any way of testing this from some point outside the MS proxy box? I just don't know enough about how the MS proxy server works in order to troubleshoot access through it. Traceroute results would be interesting as well.

Everything "seems" fine on my end (having tested things through numerous ISPs and at connection speeds ranging from 28.8 through OC3). That isn't to say that there might not still be problems, but most of these are probably on the user end of the connection, not the film-tech end.

I will add that the FT server has _never_ crashed on its own accord. There have been a couple of losses of connectivity, but not due to any problem with the server itself.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 06-23-2001 02:21 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
When I am on my laptop on a dialup connection, I always seem to have problems with refreshes when using IE (sometimes refreshing over and over to finally get the new page), but never Netscape. It seems to affect this particular forum program more than anything else. I can go to other sites using the same software and experience the same issue, but the next time you have problems, click over to the links page or something else on the site that is static, just for kicks to see what you get. (Or just don't use that IE browser.)

I'm not discounting the possibility of the DNS routing, but I've yet to experience it.


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Adam Martin
I'm not even gonna point out the irony.

Posts: 3686
From: Dallas, TX
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 06-23-2001 04:50 PM      Profile for Adam Martin   Author's Homepage   Email Adam Martin       Edit/Delete Post 
Scott ... I've pinged before while page loading was hanging up. The ping was good. There was a time when it was so bad that I could click on a page and it _literally_ took 5 minutes to load on the T1 (for every site I tried to access). If I went to a site with a heavy graphic content, I could see the data come in second-long spurts and minute-long pauses. I bitched to the ITS department and they "made some adjustments" and now it seems that film-tech is the only one left that occasionally has problems. Oh, well, I needed to go check the projector anyway.

No problems today, but here's today's stats for future reference:

code:

Pinging www.film-tech.com [207.168.10.69] with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 207.168.10.69: bytes=32 time=94ms TTL=241
Reply from 207.168.10.69: bytes=32 time=95ms TTL=241
Reply from 207.168.10.69: bytes=32 time=95ms TTL=241
Request timed out.


code:

Tracing route to www.film-tech.com [207.168.10.69]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 3 ms 2 ms 3 ms 10.1.1.254
2 1 ms 1 ms 1 ms 10.100.1.252
3 3 ms 2 ms 2 ms 206.141.185.1
4 7 ms 7 ms 7 ms 199.179.99.1
5 10 ms 9 ms 9 ms 199.179.0.242
6 17 ms 17 ms 17 ms atm3-0x6.nap1.mich.net [198.108.22.230]
7 * * 17 ms acr2-serial6-1-0-0.chicagochd.cw.net [208.172.1.169]
8 18 ms 18 ms 18 ms corerouter2.willowsprings.cw.net [204.70.9.146]
9 20 ms 18 ms * core3.willowsprings.cw.net [204.70.4.25]
10 19 ms 19 ms 21 ms atm1-0.chi-c100.gw.epoch.net [206.220.243.61]
11 73 ms * 72 ms pos0-1.sfo-c000.gw.epoch.net [155.229.123.141]
12 74 ms 73 ms 74 ms pos8-0.pao-c001.gw.epoch.net [155.229.57.197]
13 81 ms 80 ms 81 ms pos3-0-0.lax-c100.gw.epoch.net [155.229.120.50]
14 90 ms 112 ms 90 ms pos0-0-0.dal-m100.gw.epoch.net [155.229.123.126]
15 95 ms 95 ms 95 ms 209-101-238-138.dal-m100.cust.gw.epoch.net [209.101.238.138]
16 * 96 ms * www.film-tech.com [207.168.10.69]
17 97 ms 96 ms 98 ms www.film-tech.com [207.168.10.69]

Trace complete.


That's kinda neat to see ... Detroit -> Chicago -> San Francisco -> Los Angeles -> Dallas


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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-23-2001 08:15 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Adam: it sounds like a proxy issue. There should _never_ be a 5-minute delay like that. If I knew something about MS proxy, I'd try to narrow this down further. Possible explanation: the proxy machine is also caching the most commonly used pages and so other pages that are cached may load faster than non-cached pages.

DNS "shouldn't" be a problem, either. The DNS servers are geographically separated machines, and both have a high degree of reliability. They have good net connections (one DSL, one T1) with very low latency. If there are actual delays with DNS resolution, it is likely an issue with the local DNS server that is doing the lookup.

This sounds like I'm being way too defensive of things. I'm not really trying to say "everything is perfect." Rather, I am trying to make the point that I am intrigued by the problems that people seem to be having because things have been set up as they have been in order to avoid the most common problems with DNS lookups and web service. Anyway, please do keep me and/or Brad informed of any "issues" relating to server reliability or accessibility.

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Adam Martin
I'm not even gonna point out the irony.

Posts: 3686
From: Dallas, TX
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 06-23-2001 08:40 PM      Profile for Adam Martin   Author's Homepage   Email Adam Martin       Edit/Delete Post 
Believe me, I don't blame you or Brad in the least bit. I've never had any doubt that it was an issue on the museum's end. I mean, come on, if I have to explain an elementary concept about Photoshop to the ITS Director because the Web Designer doesn't know the answer, why should I expect the Network Administrator to know what he's doing? And don't get me started on multimedia presentations or editing video on the Mac ...

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 06-23-2001 10:54 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Did I hear somebody mention the Mac? Everyone knows that the Mac is not powerful enough to edit video.

I hate cache. Sometimes it is necessary, but most of the time I wish that it didn't exist. Without it is the only way to guarantee that everyone is getting the latest updates on each page. And proxy cache is even worse! Oh, and I just loooove the proxies that don't update themselves but once a day!


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Rory Burke
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 181
From: Burbank, CA, USA
Registered: Jun 2000


 - posted 06-25-2001 04:10 AM      Profile for Rory Burke   Email Rory Burke   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tell that to my G4 laptop with "Final Cut Pro!"
He would beg to differ!!
Rory

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William Hooper
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1879
From: Mobile, AL USA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-25-2001 04:54 AM      Profile for William Hooper   Author's Homepage   Email William Hooper   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Same here. On a T1 connection, there will be occasionally days when each Film-Tech page takes 20 to 180 seconds to load. This is one of them; I'm doing other things while the client tries to drag it out of Film-Tech. Not an ISP problem at this end; other sites go lickety split as usual.


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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 06-25-2001 06:30 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Next time someone has a slow page loading day, please leave the forum and click on picture pages, tips, links and other "static" pages to see if the loading is still slow. Since the forum is constantly changing, I am interested to see if this is where the problem lies.

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