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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Community   » Film-Yak   » Airline security is a farce gone too far (Page 2)

 
This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3 
 
Author Topic: Airline security is a farce gone too far
Sean McKinnon
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1712
From: Peabody Massachusetts
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 02-28-2002 02:35 PM      Profile for Sean McKinnon   Author's Homepage   Email Sean McKinnon   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I jut flew down to Florida and the security at Logan is a littl foolish. I did not appreciate having an armed MP screaming at me at 4 am that i had better have my idand ticket in hand when i get to the front of the line and that i had better check my carry on bags to make sure that they arent too big becase I dont want him to have to tell me. That type of treatment makes ne want to fly. I also got selected for a "random" search.

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Will Kutler
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1506
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Registered: Feb 2001


 - posted 02-28-2002 05:27 PM      Profile for Will Kutler   Email Will Kutler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
From someone who is an experienced aircraft mechanic; here goes.....

El-Al (the Israeli National Airline) has the toughest security measures of any airline. It probably would not be practical to introduce their system because of home many hours ~ thats right ~ hours of prescreening check in it takes before a passenger is allowed to board an aircraft! Furthermore, if these types of programs were to be instituted, organizations such as the ACLU would be screaming bloody murder and there would undoubtly be lawsuits galore!

The last time I traveled overseas commerically overseas was in the mid 1980's, and it was on El-Al. Here is what happened on a direct 747 flight from N.Y. to Tel Aviv.

Arrived in N.Y. about 6 or 8 hrs prior to El-Al departure. The El-Al terminal was sealed and closed. El-Al security told me to grab a cab and do some sight seeing in N.Y. for a couple of hrs....kind of difficult w/the amount of luggage I had. After an arguement, they allowed me to crash in the terminal for a few hrs. of rest.

Preparations for boarding started about 4hrs or so prior to departure. 4*8 card tables were lined up ended to end and the passengers formend several lines. All had their turn being interrogated by security...why are you going to Israel, what is your business, how long are you staying and on and on... Furthermore, ALL bagage (carry on and checked) was physcially opened and inspected. All bagage was also subject to x-ray and metal detection!

Two thirds or more of the Flight Attendants were men, and people who you did not wish to mess with! There were also plain clothed security officers attached to the flight.

The U.S. military also had it's problems regarding flightline security, and with the base closures in the early 1990's some bases were closed partly because of this problem. A great example being Norton AFB, CA....

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David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 4021
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002


 - posted 02-28-2002 09:49 PM      Profile for David Stambaugh   Author's Homepage   Email David Stambaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The air security issue is kind of "glass half full / glass half empty" thing. Before Sept. 11th, airport and airline security was clearly a bad joke. What we now have is a system that's better, but far from perfect. On a daily basis you have thousands of flights, hundreds of airports, hundreds of thousands of passengers, and thousands of airport screeners. Impossible for anything involving that many people and that much complexity to ever achieve perfection.

Then you have to deal with the question "what objects might passengers bring aboard that could conceivably be used as weapons?". It would be impractical to have a fixed list of forbidden items. I think what they've done is try to create such a list, but also leave it open-ended by forbidding sharp or pointed objects in general. Zero-tolerance is the rule. So with that many screeners and screening points, it's inevitable that someone will invoke the zero-tolerance rule on someone's military awards or something else that seems dumb. But either there's zero-tolerance or there isn't. I'm not sure I want those screeners making independent decisions on what is a potential weapon and what isn't.

If we had 25% effectiveness at screening out weapons and such before Sept. 11th, and 75% effectiveness now, then progress has been made. 100% is impossible. So if you measure it that way, the beefed-up security has to be considered something of a success. Also, it's much more likely that an evildoer-wannabe would get caught now, thus possibly deterring them from trying in the first place. The system will NEVER be perfect though.

------------------
- dave
Look at this! His chin strap has been cut!

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-28-2002 11:43 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Paul,
No, won't be on the Hog. Still too cold up here to go very far on it! Plus, I need the steel in the Blazer for shielding from all the radiation I'll be going near. Look foreword to meeting you there.
Mark @ NEW GTS


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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 03-01-2002 01:58 AM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yeah, Mark....Also, the radiation does get as thick as the bugs on the Hog's windshield in the summer.

Even worse, wait until a damned bee gets past your windshield on your Hog, slams you in the face, drops in your lap, and starts stinging you in an unmentionable place. That happened to me once, and I was surprised at how fast I stopped that damn Hog of mine.

Jeeze...that hurt.


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Jerry Chase
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1068
From: Margate, FL, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 03-01-2002 09:24 AM      Profile for Jerry Chase   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"Even worse, wait until a damned bee gets past your windshield on your Hog, slams you in the face, drops in your lap, and starts stinging you in an unmentionable place. "


Uhhhh... Just curious... Did it swell up?

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Greg Mueller
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1687
From: Port Gamble, WA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 03-01-2002 10:25 AM      Profile for Greg Mueller   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Mueller   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It's really hard to judge how well, or to what degree the new security is working or not, without knowing how many terrorists have been discouraged or stopped altogether. We'll probably never know how many hijackings would have happened without the increased security. Maybe the best deterrent is the threat of what they may find, or who they may spot trying to get on the plane. With all the attention being focused on the security of the airports it certainly must be making the prospect of terrorist activity there, less attractive to the terrorists. I would say that the chances of a terrorist successfully navigating the screening process now are much slimmer than they used to be. Probably the biggest deterrent, however, is that the terrorists must now know that the passengers are not going to ride to their deaths like sheep, as they did pre 9-11. I don't ride airplanes that much, but if I want to, I will, and having to spend a couple of hours at the airport is just a means to an end for me. Besides that, those terrorist creeps will never intimidate me into not doing what I want, when, and where. I'll just be a bit more cautious about it.

------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/

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Jerry Chase
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1068
From: Margate, FL, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 03-01-2002 11:22 AM      Profile for Jerry Chase   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"Probably the biggest deterrent, however, is that the terrorists must now know that the passengers are not going to ride to their deaths like sheep, as they did pre 9-11. "

I agree wholeheartedly.

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David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 4021
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002


 - posted 03-01-2002 12:01 PM      Profile for David Stambaugh   Author's Homepage   Email David Stambaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Passenger deterrent: How did I forget to mention that??!! That's probably at least as important as everything else that's been done.

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 03-01-2002 01:12 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ummmm.....Jerry, I'll bet I had the biggest balls in town for a few days...

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Trevor Bailey
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 113
From: Woonsocket, RI
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 03-02-2002 03:48 PM      Profile for Trevor Bailey   Author's Homepage   Email Trevor Bailey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Bumper stickers:

I'll give you 100% safety or 100% freedom; You choose!!

The current airline "security" measures are just PR to make the lemmings feel safe.

Arm pilots and allow trained off-duty police to carry on planes.

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 03-04-2002 03:47 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Unless the disaster movies I've been watching are completely inaccurate, then if you fire a gun through the fuselage of a pressurised aircraft it's likely to be the last thing you do. I don't mind officials being armed with stun guns, pepper sprays or whatever, but the thought of them carrying firearms on aircraft would make me less likely to travel by air, not more.

But the real issue is that terrorists look for the path of least resistance. If you wrap air travel up in security paranoia, the bad guys will just go for something else.

Example: a friend of mine came to stay last weekend, and she managed to leave her suitcase on the train. She realised this just as we were walking down the platform and it was accelerating towards Newcastle. You could get quite a respectable bomb inside that suitcase and if it went off in a packed railway carriage doing 120mph the result would be a pretty hefty insurance claim.

The fact is that we don't operate the same level of security for rail travel, e.g. ensuring that luggage always embarks and disembarks with its owner, which is what routinely happens with aircraft. I accept that with air travel the security is probably necessary because a falling aircraft would cause far greater damage to buildings and people on the ground than an exploding GNER express somewhere in the Vale of York. But we accept a certain level of risk when we do anything. The best way to minimise it is by going after the people who cause the problems rather than restricting the lives of innocent citizens.


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Jerry Chase
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1068
From: Margate, FL, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 03-04-2002 08:24 AM      Profile for Jerry Chase   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"But we accept a certain level of risk when we do anything. The best way to minimise it is by going after the people who cause the problems rather than restricting the lives of innocent citizens."

I second the emotion. That cuts right to the meat of the issue. Well said, Leo.

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David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 4021
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002


 - posted 03-04-2002 10:14 AM      Profile for David Stambaugh   Author's Homepage   Email David Stambaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Leo said "Unless the disaster movies I've been watching are completely inaccurate, then if you fire a gun through the fuselage of a pressurised aircraft it's likely to be the last thing you do."

There was an air safety expert talking about this on one of the Sunday morning talk shows. He said the weapons carried by air marshalls use a special type of bullet which is very unlikely to be able to pierce a fuselage. He also recommended that the pilots be armed with 9mm pistols.

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 03-04-2002 10:37 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Point taken about the modified rounds, but that still leaves the danger of shooting the wrong person - and this danger is made worse by the facts that a typical passenger plane is packed with lots of people in a small area, and that pilots are not (AFAIK) formally trained in the use of firearms.

You have to ask yourself what is likely to be more dangerous - the risk of a hijacking or the risk of 'collateral damage' caused by accidents resulting from defensive firearm use.

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