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Topic: MD compression and sound quality

Josh Jones
Redhat

Posts: 1207
From: Plano, TX
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 08-31-2002 07:00 PM

Overall, I thought that soundtrack was quite good. The original japanese disk is probably the best source to compare, I had the american version, But I still think it sounds quite good. Classical music really isnt the best way to torture the MPEG format, rock is. That is where I notice the most difference, especially in the upper treble.

Josh

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 08-31-2002 07:32 PM

Josh, Sibilance? I thought that was a bad side effect in MPEG formats to begin with.

Claude, how old is your MD unit, and what was the model number? I bought my first one about 11 years or so ago. It was a great sounding unit, and when I used it with my Audio Technica mixer board, that thing kicked butt! Problem is, it died only because I had to take it apart to retrieve my disk. It was about three years old when I tossed the MD unit in the trash.

The second one I got didn't like to be bounced around that much. It was just too small. It was about 3 inches square, and about 1/2 inch thick. It opened like a clamshell. The third one could stand up to severe vibrations without too much trouble.

The big problem I see with the MD Recorder/Players is contamination from the atmosphere, smog, and general dirt and dust that can easily find its way when it is opened to change disks.

A small piece of dirt in the MD recorder/player is comparable to a peanut butter & jelly sandwich being stuffed into a VCR.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 09-01-2002 01:55 AM

I still own the Sony MZ-1, which was actually a good unit since it was the first MiniDisc player/recorder ever made, and therefore Sony was trying to promote the coolness of the new format instead of their usual antics. The unit no longer works. It will accept and eject a disc but cannot play it. It has a giant rechargable NiCd battery with an amazing 1 hour life. The thing sounded really good. It was the only portable unit I have ever seen that offered digital optical in AND out. Most Sony units only offer digital in, even on their decks. The Kenwood is cool since it offers TOS-link optical digital AND coaxial digital in AND out. I like coaxial better... cheaper cable (you can use ANY RCA type cable) and less jitter in the digital signal.

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Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001

posted 09-01-2002 02:06 AM

Paul: 11 years ago!?? I didn't think MD was round back then!! It must have been in its infancy, and damned expensive, too!

Joe: I saw the MZ-1 on display at Sony Wonder in NYC. I thought to myself: "Holy shiot! That thing's as big as a portable CD player! Why would anyone want it!?" But I suppose that's because I'm used to today's disc-sized players. Even so, if the player is the same size, I guess I'd rather cary around one that could play and record MD's, rather than just play CD's.

My Sony MDS-JE510 deck offers optical digital in and out. Never used it, though, because my CD player doesn't have digital out. But you're right about the portables: I don't think I've ever seen one that has digital out. My Sharp 702 portable recorder has digital in only. So do all the ones (I think) currenty offered on minidisco.com.

Which came first: optical digital or coax digital? In either case, why was the second one invented?

Sorta getting back to my original question: So we all agree that MD sound quality rocks! If it uses compression, and MP3's use compression, why do MP3's not sound as good as a CD?

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 09-01-2002 02:10 AM

Joe, that was the same model I had. At the time mine died, Sony offered a flat rate of 200 bucks to repair it. I sent it in, and I received a note from them saying that I screwed it up really bad. It was still repairable, but they could not do it and guarantee it at the same time. So, I elected to throw it away.

Yours still might be repairable. Price might be different, but that thing is so cool that it might be worth taking a look at and consider having it repaired. I would presume it depends on the availability of parts.

Yeah, Ken. That thing costed me about 625 bucks then....

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Bernard Tonks
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 619
From: Cranleigh, Surrey, England
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 09-01-2002 06:12 AM

I installed two Sony MD machines at my cinema when they first came out, only updating once to the MDS-JE530. Recording appropriate music suitable for the film, often from CDs of the soundtrack, was far better than programming up a CD for each showing, particularly if you wanted to use a 2 box set or other CDs as well. Recordings were made from a good Marantz CD-63 mark II player. I just love all the editing features that MD audio format offers.

It is now all connected up in my home along with a Revox A77 mk4 open reel, and I won’t part with any of it.

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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000

posted 09-01-2002 11:06 AM

XM wrote:
>So we all agree that MD sound quality rocks! If it uses compression, and
>MP3's use compression, why do MP3's not sound as good as a CD?

Well if it's not the same compression then it is bound to sound different and also, such flaws as each scheme has may show up on different types of material. I've never used MD. Is it actually better at comparable compression rate & file size? Is there a software implementation of ATRAC?

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Dave Williams
Wet nipple scene

Posts: 1836
From: Salt Lake City, UT, USA
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 09-01-2002 12:43 PM

When it comes to mp3's, most people encode them at a cbr of 128. I use a 2-pass vbr of 128-320, with a high frequency filter. The nomal mp3 file takes up a meg or two, while the majority of mine take up about 5-8 megs. The sound quality is excellent, and have used them on high wattage systems with no discernable distortion or sound degradation.

Like I pointed out, it is in the encoding process where you lose it. Most people can't tell the difference of the crappy mp3's you are referring to. We all seem to. That is why I don't encode that way.

I never got into MD. Mostly because I didn't see a need to. I know they have excellent quality, but I feel that I can match it.

Dave

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Claude S. Ayakawa
Film God

Posts: 2738
From: Waipahu, Hawaii, USA
Registered: Aug 2002

posted 09-01-2002 01:23 PM

Although I do not like Sony's portable MD players because of their low volume control and poor workmanship, I have had absolutely no problem with their home deck I have been using to record my minidiscs. The MD deck I have was the top of Sony's regular line when I bought it about three years ago. It is the MDS JB920 and has almost all of the features that was on their more expensive ES model. Recording on it is very simple because the MD deck is a part of my home theatre system and it sits right on top of another excellent Sony product, my long lasting DVD-S3000 dvd player. With a digital cable from the DVD player connected to the MD deck, it is very easy to record music from my CDs on to a minidisc. The nice thing I like about my MD deck is the ability to list selection titles on to the discs.

-Claude

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Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 09-01-2002 08:01 PM

Hey Dave,
why do take the trouble at all to encode to mp3 when at your compression rate you approach the data rate (10MB/min) of uncompressed PCM, or at best you save 50% data which doesn`t make so much sense to me, since recordable cds are so cheap these days?
Michael

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 09-02-2002 08:03 PM

The problem I have with many MP3 files is most are encoded at a low 128kb/s bitrate. Even with the best codecs, I can easily tell the difference between that file and a full LPCM CD quality bitstream. Yet many encoders claim 128kb/s to be "CD Quality".

. 192kb/s is a little better, but it sounds the same to me as DD 2.0 at 192kb/s. With a good codec and a higher bitrate (in the 256kb/s to 320kb/s neighboorhood) the MP3 will stand up well to a CD original in comparisons.

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99

posted 09-02-2002 08:41 PM

What's the best MP3 encoding software? I've only personally used the "LAME" encoder, which is freeware, but I'm told that some of the commercial encoders are significantly better. On the other hand, stuff encoded with LAME sounds better than many of the mp3 files that I've heard that were encoded with other software (not sure what).

As for MD--I've not had much experience with the format, but one place where I run 16mm film sometimes has a pair of Denon MD-Cart machines, which are presumably the modern-day equivalent to the standard radio-style cart machine. It seems like a great idea for sound effects for live theatre productions (which is what they are used for).

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Claude S. Ayakawa
Film God

Posts: 2738
From: Waipahu, Hawaii, USA
Registered: Aug 2002

posted 09-02-2002 09:28 PM

Does anyone have any comments about the Apple iPod? The original 5 GB iPod model is still available at a hundred dollars cheaper than it was when the system was first introduced late last year. There are now two more models beside the original iPod with higher capacity. One has 10GB of storage capacity and the top of the line has 20Gb. How is the sound quality of iPod compared to the sound from a MD? I would like to buy one but do not know what model to buy. I am kind of leaning to the least expensive 5GB model but I dont want to regret later when I am faced with the need for more storage space. I have a new G4 imac and downloading music from that computer will be a breeze.

-Claude

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 09-02-2002 11:16 PM

Isn't the iPod simply a device for playing MP3 files? I haven't read up on the thing and whether it can play full LPCM tracks or audio in other formats like Dolby Digital AC-3 (remember Liquid Audio?). At any rate, it would seem the primary determining factor of audio quality would be the compressed file itself that you are playing. A poorly encoded MP3 is going to sound like crap on an iPod just like it will sound like crap on a Rio player or any other portable digital music device.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 09-03-2002 12:18 AM

While Scott is asking what is the best mp3 encoder, I will ask what is the best mp3 decoder (to wav)? Winamp used to have this built into their player and it made excellent conversions (given the source material), but all of their latest "upgrades" no longer have it.

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