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Author Topic: Mac Computers
Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 10-07-2002 06:28 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
To be quite honest, the newest generation of G4 Mac towers are priced pretty competitively against many PCs.

A 1GHz G4 CPU with 1MB of L3 cache is roughly the equivalent in CPU muscle as a 2.53 GHz Pentium IV. And all the new G4 towers are equipped with TWO G4 CPUs. So for $2,500, you get a dual-1GHz Mac with DVD burning capability, and with the newest 10.2 Jaguar OS, you can network directly with your old PC without having to buy any extra software. Right now, you get big discounts on MS Office for Mac and Adobe InDesign 2.0 (which costs $699) for free. That's not a bad deal at all even with this day and age of very aggressive PC pricing. I just wish the software part of the equation were a less bitter pill to swallow.

I just visited the websites of Dell, Mircon, Gateway and a couple others. To get comparable CPU muscle, DVD burning, multi-monitor capability and other things, you'll be spending over $2,000 for a single CPU Wintel PC (I couldn't find anything outside of server configurations for multiprocessor PCs on any of their websites).

Anyway, as a long time PC user, I'm fixing to buy a new Mac and start collecting software for it.


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David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 4021
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002


 - posted 10-07-2002 06:47 PM      Profile for David Stambaugh   Author's Homepage   Email David Stambaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dell's "Precision Workstation 530" model supports dual-CPUs:

Dell Precision Workstations


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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-07-2002 07:48 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
For some reason, desktop multiprocessor (SMP) systems haven't really caught on in the Windows world. They're pretty common in the Unix world (I'm typing this on a dual-CPU Sun Ultra 2, which is an older workstation, but still quite nice), and apparently in the Mac world as well. I'd love to see one of the high-end Macs with OS X; I suspect that I would quite like it as a desktop machine, as Macs seem to have many of the benefits of workstation hardware (e.g. tight integration of hardware and OS and a high degree of reliability, as things tend to "just work"), while being significantly less expensive than real workstations from Sun, SGI, etc.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 10-07-2002 08:15 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well Scott, you are welcome to come over to my house and try out my dual 1ghz G4 with Mac OS X.2. It even offers the "terminal" so you can type in your favorite UNIX commands! And to make things even better, the Terminal window can be TRANSPARENT! Life cannot get any better than that!


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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 10-07-2002 09:32 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I guess Dell's "latest and greatest" tagline isn't meant for their top quality workstation line. The 340 series uses regular P4 CPUs, but you don't get the option for dual processors. The 530 series offers dual CPU capability in P4 Xeon processors with 512kb of L2 cache.

In configuring a dual Xeon system with similar appointments in hardware as the dual-G4 1GHz Mac, I was shocked at how much more expensive the systems turned out to be. A dual-P4 2.6GHz setup with 512MB of RDRAM, 80GB HDD, DVD+RW+R and WinXP Pro came in at a whopping $3880! And that is with no monitor included and the standard Quadro4 video card downgraded to an entry level 32MB RadeonVE adapter. It took dropping dual-Xeon CPU speeds to the minimum 1.8GHz spec, shrinking the RAM and the hard disc to get the price down to just under $2700.

I am surprised as well on how multiprocessing PCs have never really taken off on the Windows side, given that WindowsNT has had SMP support in it from the OS launch back in 1993. Dual processor Intel board designs have come and gone. I've got an old (and dead) SCSI PII400MHz dual system. The first Pentium Pro 200MHz Micron computer I had featured dual CPU sockets. I remember that it wasn't hard to configure a PC with four PPro CPUs back in the mid 1990s.

And the multi-threaded apps have been there for a long time. Adobe Photoshop on NT has been multiprocessor enabled since version 3.0. Other apps like Premiere, After Effects, Lightwave3D, 3D Studio Max and Wright Design have been able to take advantage of SMP.

But the problem is (as you can see from the price list) the cost of doing SMP on the PC side is often surprisingly high. And too many people on the PC side are just interested in getting by cheap.

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David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 4021
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002


 - posted 10-07-2002 09:42 PM      Profile for David Stambaugh   Author's Homepage   Email David Stambaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
When I worked for game developer Dynamix (Sierra On-Line), we bought a Compaq dual-CPU workstation to be the master server in a 3D Max rendering farm. It was probably something like 300MHz processors, 512MB RAM, high-performance SCSI hard drive, NT4. Turned out to be only nominally faster than a single-CPU 300MHz machine in speed of rendering images. Win2K seems to be far superior to NT in its SMP support. I have no idea how well 3D Max took advantage of SMP back then... Apple's newest systems are indeed very attractive technically and price-wise.


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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 10-07-2002 11:09 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
3D animation programs have been somewhat inconsistent on what parts of the app utilize SMP and which parts do not. Most any professional-level 3D app (Lightwave3D, 3DS Max, Maya & Softimage) uses SMP in rendering. But many other parts of the program may only use one CPU.

Overall, I think Apple is making a good move with this dual-CPU redesign of their G4 towers. That's a good way to get around the misleading slower clock of their RISC CPUs.

The only slight downside I see about the new G4 towers is their slower 133MHz PC2100 DDR memory. You have 150MHz PC2400, 169MHz PC2700 and 188MHz PC3000 DDR memory on the market (not to mention the even faster quad-channel DDR memory used on top end gaming cards). Pentium IV PCs are using PC800 and PC1066 Rambus RIMMs. I would like to have seen Apple adopt a faster system bus to use those faster types of DDR memory or Rambus memory. The PC2100 DDR configuration seems like a cost cutting deal to me. Still, it beats the crap out of an old PC100MHz or PC133MHz SDRAM configuration.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 10-07-2002 11:22 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So just what projects did you work on? Leasure Suit Larry? Any of the Kings Quest series?

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 10-07-2002 11:57 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I got rid of that thing. Tossed it in the garbage. I decided I was not going to buy an adapter for 85 bucks, a Floppy Drive, modem, a new battery, or anything else it needed.

Besides, it didn't power up. The MAC dealer said it would cost about 75 bucks to see what was wrong with it, and then it would probably be too expensive to repair. I saw another one just like it for $349.00 that was running, so that should say something.

I took the screws out of mine, and pryed it open like a clamshell, and tossed it in a trash can at a local rest area. When I drove off, I said to myself, "Now it is a GOOD Mac!"


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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 10-08-2002 02:49 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The problem I've always had with Macs has been inflexibility and the much higher cost of peripherals and software relative to those for PCs.

As for dual processor PC platforms, they don't seem to be sold very much in ready-assembled packages (the Dell example above notwithstanding). But there are some well-performing, sensibly priced dual processor motherboards on the market (e.g. the Asus A77266-D, which takes two Athlon processors) for those who want to go down the self-build route. IMHO, Windows 2000 can deliver cost-effective performance and stability improvements with a dual motherboard and mid-range processors when compared with the cost of a single, state-of-the-art processor.

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David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 4021
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002


 - posted 10-08-2002 11:04 AM      Profile for David Stambaugh   Author's Homepage   Email David Stambaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve: King's Quest and Leisure Suit Larry were developed at the main Sierra location in Bellevue. Dynamix (here in Eugene) did games like Red Baron, Aces of the Deep, Tribes & Tribes 2, Starsiege, Incredible Machine, and all the 3D-Ultra pinball games.

Apple: One of my beefs with Apple's latest generation of products, especially the X-Servers, is they use IDE hard drives as a cost-savings measure. IDE drives are much less expensive than SCSI. Unfortunately the MTBF and general performance specs for IDE are also lower than SCSI. I suspect SCSI drives go through a more rigorous quality-control process than IDE drives, but that's just my theory. IMHO, real servers should have SCSI drives. Where I'm working now, in 1 year we've had 5 IDE hard drives go bad out of a total of 14. Our main server has 8 SCSI drives, and none have failed. Small sample, but consistant with my past experience...


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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 10-08-2002 12:05 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ah...I remember Red Baron....

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-08-2002 01:16 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Agreed with David--Apple shouldn't have abandoned SCSI, especially since Macs are commonly used for I/O intensive tasks (e.g. sound/video editing).

In addition to being more reliable than IDE, SCSI is a real "win" in that it makes it very easy to connect many devices to the same SCSI controller (whereas IDE is limited to two devices per controller).

All of my home machines (except for a laptop) use SCSI; at work, most of the servers that I run use it as well (usually with some form of hardware or software RAID), with exceptions for a few machines that are doing noncritical, non I/O-intensive tasks.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 10-08-2002 02:49 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ummmm, you can get your Mac installed with a SCSI card (all types) for about $25 straight from Apple. Just because they come with an IDE drive doesn't mean you can't have SCSI. You can even order them with SCSI drives installed if you want. Check the Apple site and you'll see that SCSI has hardly been forgotton or abandoned. It is alive and well in the Mac world.

From Apple's site on older SCSI support (the card costs $25):
The Ultra SCSI PCI card lets you use older external SCSI devices such as tape drives, scanners, and hard disks with your new Power Mac G4 or Macintosh Server G4. You can connect standard SCSI (SCSI-1), Fast SCSI (SCSI-2), and Ultra SCSI (also called Ultra Narrow SCSI) peripherals to the Ultra SCSI card. With the card installed, you can also start up your computer from externally connected drives.

This economical and convenient option lets you connect up to seven SCSI devices, as long as the total cable length measures no more than 6 meters, or about 18 feet. The card supports cable lengths of 1.5 meters when running in Ultra SCSI mode or 6 meters when running in SCSI-1 or SCSI-2 mode. Ultra SCSI mode supports transfer rates of up to 20 megabytes per second (MBps). SCSI-2 mode supports up to 10MBps, and SCSI-1 supports up to 5MBps. The Ultra SCSI card includes a 25- to 50-pin cable adapter.

On SCSI Hard drives:

Ultra160 SCSI hard drives
SCSI hard drives run at up to 10,000 rpm and will read or write data at much higher speeds than ATA drives. Apple offers Ultra160 SCSI drives, which come with a dual-channel Ultra160 SCSI card installed in one of the computer's PCI slots. Ultra160 SCSI can support up to 160 megabytes of data per second. These high-storage and high-performance drives allow both desktop and server customers the ultimate flexibility in data storage all conveniently configured within your Macintosh system.
For optimal performance, connect Ultra160 SCSI devices to the preinstalled dual-channel Ultra160 SCSI card. With the dual-channel Ultra160 SCSI card, you can also connect external SCSI devices on the second SCSI bus without affecting the performance of your internally connected Ultra160 SCSI drives.

Macs don't have SCSI? Not sure where that information came from.

PS - Dynamix was also responsible for the horrible 3DO game Stellar 7. Not sure, but I think there was an even worse version for the Sega CD. The best part of both games was the music and sound effects.



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David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 4021
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002


 - posted 10-08-2002 03:21 PM      Profile for David Stambaugh   Author's Homepage   Email David Stambaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Go to the Apple on-line store for Xserve and you'll find that they clearly don't want to sell you SCSI hard drives. Only IDE drives are listed when custom-configuring a server. An optional Ultra-160 PCI SCSI card is listed as $200. Where did you get $25? I see no mention anywhere of internal hot-swappable SCSI drive support for Xservers, or hardware RAID. Internal hot-swap SCSI drives would require a different backplane for the drive bay(s).

Xserve

quote:
PS - Dynamix was also responsible for the horrible 3DO game Stellar 7. Not sure, but I think there was an even worse version for the Sega CD. The best part of both games was the music and sound effects.

Couldn't tell you, never played it myself. Just as some movies turn out as crap despite the best efforts of their makers, so do some video games. Thanks for pointing that out though.



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