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Author Topic: Mac Computers
Jason Burroughs
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 654
From: Allen, TX
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-08-2002 03:22 PM      Profile for Jason Burroughs   Email Jason Burroughs   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Western Digital makes some SCSI drives that spin at 15,000 RPM.

Serial ATA will change the ATA interface for the better, First Generation will have a throughput speed of at least 150Mbp/s with the ability to grow to over 500Mbp/s.

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Ron Lacheur
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 650
From: British Columbia, Canada
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 10-08-2002 06:28 PM      Profile for Ron Lacheur   Email Ron Lacheur   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
WD in my experience are lousy drives. I've seen lots with bad sectors only after a year in operation. Had nothing but good luck with Maxtor but I'm not sure of their quality sense they merged with Quantum.

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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

Posts: 4247
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 10-08-2002 07:34 PM      Profile for Manny Knowles   Email Manny Knowles   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've used IDE drives for three long-form video projects and many commercials (which make the drives work a lot harder) and I say they work just fine. Good riddance to SCSI. It was a royal pain in the ass.

Still, as Joe said...SCSI is still out there for the having if you really wanted it badly enough.


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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 10-08-2002 09:13 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The $25 card is for the older SCSI's for the tower Macs. That'll give you compatibility with all the old, crappy SCSI stuff. You know, the stuff that was considered FAST last week.

I've never cared for SCSI. Everything must have it's own ID number, it must be properly terminated and cable length cannot exceed a certain amount. May have been cutting edge back in 1985, but is outdated by todays standards. Let's go with Firewire or something even better. Just plug it in and don't even think about trying to set it up, because it won't be necessary.


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David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 4021
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002


 - posted 10-08-2002 09:27 PM      Profile for David Stambaugh   Author's Homepage   Email David Stambaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You guys are talking about 80's-era SCSI technology. Newer server-class systems with hot-swappable SCSI drives auto-assign the SCSI ID numbers. The slot the drive plugs into is "hard-wired" to a specific SCSI ID number. Termination is also automatic. No drive jumpers or switches to configure, and no terminators. Pretty much plug-and-play. Newer external SCSI subsystems have similar features, but cables are still a pain in the neck to deal with. High-end servers are going with fibre-channel and SAN (storage area network)...

I never said IDE is no good. IDE drives are an incredible value and they generally work fine. But in my experience, they are much more likely to abruptly fail than are SCSI drives (I just replaced a dead 40GB IBM IDE drive last week, less than 1 year old). Therefore I don't like the idea of using IDE in mission-critical network servers. When an 80GB IDE drive costs $120, while an 80GB hot-swappable SCSI drive costs $600 (or more), there are valid technical reasons for the price disparity. If Apple used SCSI or fiber-channel in the Xserver instead of IDE, the price of the box would be WAY higher. But its reliability and performance would also be better. Hot-swap SCSI should be offered as a factory option in that system for customers who want it and are willing to pay for it.


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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 10-09-2002 12:59 AM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I used to be a big SCSI fan, but to be quite brutally honest, SCSI is a standard that deserves unmerciful death. Sorry, but that's just how I feel and that is coming from some sobering experiences with SCSI. On pricing alone, you got $80 for a damned terminator here, another $60 for a Ultra SCSI to U2 SCSI HD adapter, and on and on and on and on and on. F**k that. Do a Format C: routine and install Windows clean on a SCSI? Good luck!! God forbid you're doing it on a system where the SCSI controller was integrated into the motherboard in a single chip solution.

Serial ATA would be great. But it is vaporware. And it may always remain as vaporware. Ultra ATA is trying to incorporate RAID capability. But Firewire can do it better. And with Firewire2 looming on the horizon, the Ultra320 SCSI standard may certainly be rendered moot. Hell, with the bandwidth USB 2.0 supports we may soon be seeing USB 2.0 external hard discs.

I'm rooting for things like Firewire and USB 2.0. ONE single type of cable connection. No f**king terminators or IRQs or "is this channel loaded up" nonsense. I realize SCSI is up to Ultra320 standards now. But you are still limited to 7 devices per channel and 15 devices total, with all the continued adapter and terminator headaches.

I've had a few SCSI computers in my time and my dual PII 400MHz was pretty much the last I will ever stomach owning. Items like SCSI based Zip drives and CD-RW drives were extremely problematic. The freaking Zip drive never ever worked right. If anyone is going to buy any kind of new SCSI based system DO NOT under any circumstances buy anything where SCSI is integrated into the motherboard chipset. That is pure, utter garbage.

I'm not very worried at all about the Macs running IDE drives standard instead of SCSI. With today's options, I say big deal. The IDE drives have enough I/O capacity and drive RPM speed to handle things like digital video streams. And then if you get into a situation where you need something better for brute force purposes, pick up a SanCube Firewire RAID disc box. One firewire cable, no terminators, no adapters, no headaches, just wide bandwidth drive performance.

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 10-09-2002 02:29 AM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I got an old laptop for fifty bucks. IBM compatible. If I can find my old Winblows 95 floppys, problem solved.

I loaded DOS 6.22 and Passgas 3.1 on it.


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David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 4021
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002


 - posted 10-09-2002 11:03 AM      Profile for David Stambaugh   Author's Homepage   Email David Stambaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Perhaps I didn't make myself clear.

Workstations and utility servers: IDE is perfectly good and much less expensive. SCSI is unnecessary unless you want the nth degree of performance and reliability, and cost is not an issue.

Mission-critical servers: IDE bad. SCSI much better. Initial cost may be higher, but long-term reliability and performance are improved over IDE.

Older SCSI ZIP drives and other external SCSI peripherals that require user configuration of IDs, termination, etc. are a pain in the ass and obsolete.

Newer SCSI system designs for mission-critical applications DO NOT require messing with termination or SCSI ID numbers. I would avoid any such SCSI device like the plague (although tape backup systems still usually require configuration). Fortunately or unfortunately, most high-performance tape backup solutions for networks and servers are SCSI (or fiber-channel, or SAN). If a tape drive is IDE, it's a given that it's a consumer-grade piece of junk.

Firewire, serial ATA, etc: Bring it on!


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Jason Burroughs
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 654
From: Allen, TX
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-09-2002 03:11 PM      Profile for Jason Burroughs   Email Jason Burroughs   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Actually, the hardware for Serial ATA is already entering the market place. There's even adaptors that will allow you to plug an ATA(100 133 etc) drive into a Serial ATA system. The data cable has 7 conductors, Power has 15 Conductors, allowing the drives to be hot-swapable.

More information available here: http://www6.tomshardware.com/storage/02q3/020812/

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