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Well if that's the function of a 'coming out day', then surely it's an admission of defeat? Let's say, for example, that a gay colleague asked if he could leave work an hour early because he was going to the cinema with his partner. Surely he should be able to ask that question without fear of a prejudiced reply at any time, not just on one day a year?

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It doesn't mean that people have to be tolerant one day out of the year, but if a company, like Kodak, sends out an email "endorsing" the day, that lets people know that the company is accepting and supportive of their employees regardless of their sexuality. Having a day dedicated to coming out merely gives people an occasion to show their support. The problem is that because of a long history of discrimination in many places, many people do not know if they can "ask that question without fear of a prejudiced reply at any time."

National Fire Prevention Week doesn't mean that the other 51 weeks of the year we run around willy-nilly with matches and gasoline.

And there is still no proof that Kodak is "sponsoring" this event. As far as I can tell, they are only acknowledging that it exists and are providing support for their staff who may be in a supervisory position to understand the situation and guide them in a company-accepted method of handling the situation. Companies provide training seminars for all sorts of management-type situations all the time, be it dealing with irate customers or "sensitivity" training.

Peter mentioned

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The question is - what should a man do when forced to choose between what he truly knows in his heart to be right and what is written in the scriptures of the religeon he subscribes to?

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Exactly. There are many instances in religious text where the laws of the time just don't apply any more. But, since it's in the Bible (or whatever text), does that mean that the following still apply:

.....................................................................

KODAK VALUES

At Kodak, we conduct ourselves according to six corporate values. These values define who we are, and how we act toward each other, our customers, our shareholders, and all of our publics. It is important that everyone understand our values so we can work together as one worldwide company as we navigate today's increasingly tough, competitive marketplace.

1. Respect for the Dignity of the Individual
We cannot operate effectively unless each of us is able to treat everyone else with appropriate respect. This essential value is at the heart of our culture and will help us focus on many important issues like diversity of our workforce.

2. Integrity
In today's increasingly complex business and social world, integrity and honesty must be the hallmarks of any organization or person striving to consistently achieve and maintain the respect of our publics.

3. Trust
We must be able to work in an environment in which we trust each other. We must depend upon and trust our colleagues to do their assigned tasks without the need to check and recheck their work. Likewise, each of us must handle our responsibilities so that our colleagues can trust we are doing our part.

4. Credibility
Each of us must earn credibility with others inside and outside the company. Certainly, the company as a whole must strive for the highest credibility with all its external publics. We must commit to do what we say we will do, and no later than we commit to do it.

5. Continuous Improvement and Personal Renewal
Results do count, and continuous improvement toward world-class levels is essential to achieve credibility with our publics. We must each continually improve ourselves and renew our skill sets. Training and education must be accepted as a common responsibility between us - as employees - and the company as a whole.

6. Recognition and Celebration
We will search out and welcome opportunities to openly celebrate the achievements of others and congratulate individuals, teams, employees, suppliers and customers for delivering results that contribute to Kodak success. Recognition and celebration will be an integral part of our everyday work activity.

Home | Search | Service & Support
Copyright © Eastman Kodak Company, 1994-2000 and Privacy Practices.

......................................................................

I plan to give a copy to my young pediatric office trainee, as she plans to attend leadership training courses in Washington and New York, as part of her preparation for standing for election as Class President. She may wish to share this expression with others, of course with attribution.

Frankly, I don't see how any Film-tech reader, especially those in management, could quarrel with the aims expressed above.

Gerard

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I took "morally" to mean in the opinion of a society as a whole. A man might lose his faith but not his morality.

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Dear Adam, man cannot define morality, neither can society. Morality is related to the Creator, the universal source of all that is good. It is He who defines the difference between right and wrong, in His book for living, The Holy Bible. The faithful also hold that the Bible is divinely inspired and is the unerrant word of God.

The Bible says if a man lays with another man, he shall not enter the kingdom of heaven. That sounds like a pretty severe transgression. I don't know that the Bible commands us to hate anyone. Likewise, I don't know that it tells us to judge anyone -- only God can do that. We are, however, supposed to shun things like homosexuality. "Hate the sin, love the sinner."

I think Leo makes an excellent point regarding rights and the responsibilities that go with them. You're a very clear thinker, sir!

If you are saying that we should respect and value others, even if they are different than us and don't share our beliefs, we are on the same page. Tolerance and open-mindedness don't corrupt, they enrich.

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man cannot define morality, neither can society.

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Sorry, but I have to disagree with that. Morals can and are defined by man and society. Our religious beliefs can help reinforce those morals, but so do our own internal and societal directives. As one pointed out, it was once considered moral and God-given to hold slaves, for example. Yet I highly doubt most religious people would find that acceptable today. Interracial marriage was seen as an abomination before God by a number of religious followers. Few (hopefully) see that today.

It has been my experience that some people do indeed pick and choose Biblical passages to match their prejudices and conveniently reject other passages that do not reflect their views. As for me, I look for the underlining meaning behind the texts of the holy books I was raised with to apply to my modern day life.

Homosexuals do become violent when someone does not agree with their lifestyle! And yes, they do try to press their agenda!

After my discharge from the USAF and while living in my first apartment, a gay neighbor of mine made several passes at me. Twice I told him point blank that I am not gay and am not interested. The third time he came around I presented him with a weapon and explained to him exactly what would happen if he tried to approach me again. He got the message!

On a recent overnight cinema service call, the gay theater owner/manager made passes. I tried to politely tell him that I am not gay or interested and that I was there on professional business only! He did not take the message and persisted. I then told him what I thought of his sick shit and we parted company. I have not been paied for services rendered.

I was recently invloved with a community fundraiser for the restoration of an important historical site. One of the people in charge of the event is VERY VERY openly gay. Anyhow, he had too much alcohol and his gay related obnixious behavior really pissed off many people!

About a year ago I had to take my Mom to the hospital emerengcy room. The patient next to my Mom was gay and was in the E.R. for AIDS related problems. Two of this patients gay friends accompanied him to the e.r. Can you believe that these two were getting it on in the e.r.!

A nurse friend of mine is an emerengcy room nurse. A few years ago they had a rash of homosexuals comming into the e.r. in the middle of the night for gerble extraction! Thats right, they were getting off by shoving gerbiles up each others backsides alive and head-first!

I also have a gay relative, and his obnixious behavior really disgusts me!

As far as gay militancy. A few years ago, gay activitists forced Congressman Jim Kolbe of AZ to come out of the closet and to promote the gay agenda. Many people knew for many years that Kolbe is gay, but he is respected because he kept his personal life personal. Once again, gay activists forced him to "come out of the closet"!

When it comes to the workplace, I judge a fellow employee or subordinate by his or her own merits only! I expect that person to be prepared and on time; willing to put in an honest days work and exhibit pride, professionalism, honesty and integrity. If gays can promote their agenda in the workplace, then straight people should be allowed to do the same! WHATS GOOD FOR THE GOOSE IS GOOD FOR THE GANDER!

I am not the most religious of people, but pratically speaking I see the Bible as a Book of Life and how peoples decisions effected them for better or for worse. The bottom line is that the purpose of sex is to reproduce with that one person you love and wish to spend the rest of your life with. But what guy wouldn't want to be sandwiched between two Penthouse Pets ! Anyhow, the fact is that many of the diseases that we have today are the direct result of sexual irresponisbility. And homosexuality is definately sexual irresponsibility! After all, God created Adam and Eve, NOT ADAM and STEVE!

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Homosexuals do become violent when someone does not agree with their lifestyle! And yes, they do try to press their agenda!

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This is the biggest bunch of b.s. I've ever heard (and I'm not gay). Someone who feels the need to rant and be so paranoid about gays makes me think that they must be very insecure about their own sexuality.

I live in New York City and have worked in industries which happen to employ many gay men (library market, publishing, media) and I have NEVER been harassed or sexually approached by any gay man in any regard. And when you say, "they do try to press their agenda," if that means that gay men fight for equal rights for gays - so what? If you mean that they try to get straights to become gay, as implied in an earlier post, I've never heard of anything so ridiculous. Do you really think that there aren't enough gay men to go around so gay men try to get hetrosexual men to convert?

No disrespect here, but what a pile of Sh*t you are shoveling here. The fact that you would even entertain the validity of that hoary old gerbil urban myth story makes me question all your other "assertions" of all these gay men hitting on you. Do you really believe all gay men you come into contact with are "lusting" after you? I can believe one, maybe two incidents of inappropriate behavior, but most gays would never be so bold to try and hit up on straight men. Especially with all the reports of violence and intolerance society shows them. This type of propaganda was used in Hitler's Germany to demean and marginalize those of Jewish descent. Think about that when you adopt those tactics for your inner hatred towards those who are different than you.

Let's see, are you servicing a gay theatre, or are implying the theatre owner is gay? Did this pass really take place, or is it possible your intense homophobia made you inmagine it? You called a customer a sack of shit and are surprised he didn't pay you?

Let's see. Someone had too much alcohol and made an ass of himself? I've seen that in MANY people who had too much to drink, straight OR gay.

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man cannot define morality, neither can society. Morality is related to the Creator, the universal source of all that is good.

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Adam responds with a slightly paraphrased quote from Tim ...

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Great, I'm happy [you're] happy. Just don't force it on everyone

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Will said ...

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Homosexuals do become violent when someone does not agree with their lifestyle!

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and then he followed up with ...

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The third time he came around I presented him with a weapon and explained to him exactly what would happen if he tried to approach me again.

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Do I even need to point out the irony in this story?

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He got the message!

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And so do I. The idea of homosexuality disgusts and offends you.

Do you know what disgusts me? People who lash out with intolerance and hatred when something offends them. And Asian food.

 |  IP: Logged

It is not to 'recruit' straight people into becoming gay (which is not possible) but for those who are gay. To allow those who have yet to "come out of the closet" a chance to step out of straight society and proclaim who they are.

Why? For some it is not enough, after decades of silence, to simply say to one's self, "I'm gay". To expect that would be like telling someone who has survived an ethnic persecution "keep quiet about your heritage". Or more like asking a Irishman to keep quiet on St. Patrick's Day.

There are so many variants to sexuality and there's no black or white, but to say that gays are recruiting straights is absurd unless we're talking about people who have yet to admit their sexuality. For example, somone who for years has denied being gay and then one day for some reason or other (like Coming Out Day) wakes up.

Again, straight people can't turn gay and vice versa but the choice to live a particular lifestyle, whatever that may be or how you define it, is your own. As others have stated there are people of all orientations who make mistakes and or cross the line. As John stated, society has rules to deal with sexual predators as well.

I will take partial responsibility for the direction this thread has gone. There are probably several people out there who think less of me now than they did two days ago, but that's life. You can't please everyone all of the time.

I don't think anyone really got hurt except, maybe, for some feelings. And I still think everyone participating so far remains a valuable part of this forum.

Since David was kind enough to provide a link to the story way back on page one, I'll post the contents of that article just in case it disappears and we start wondering what we're all talking about:

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Kodak manager's firing stirs comments on rights

By Ben Rand
Democrat and Chronicle

(October 30, 2002) — Eastman Kodak Co. is fielding both protest and praise for its decision to fire a midlevel manager who criticized an e-mail that rallied support for gay and lesbian employees.

Rolf Szabo, a millwright with two decades at Kodak, was dismissed earlier this month after objecting to an internal memo about “National Coming Out Day.”

That memo gave managers advice for assisting employees who decide to tell co-workers about their sexual orientations. Szabo replied by asking the company to stop sending him e-mail on the topic, which he said he found “disgusting and offensive.”

His response apparently went to about 1,000 employees, and Szabo was subsequently fired after refusing to apologize.

The dismissal triggered a firestorm of controversy.

The Human Rights Campaign, a gay-rights lobbying group, launched a letter-writing campaign in Kodak’s defense. The organization’s “action alert” urges members to “Tell Kodak it did the right thing.”

The group acted after detecting a rising tide of criticism of Kodak from “the religious right and right-wing groups,” said Kim Mills, director of education.

She noted that Szabo’s response could have been worded better and probably should have been directed only to his immediate supervisor.

“Everybody has a right to their opinion, but nobody has the right to discriminate,” Mills said.

Conservative commentators, meanwhile, cite the Kodak case as another example of political correctness run amok. They say the company has trampled Szabo’s free speech rights with its actions.

The Rev. Jerry Falwell, in a column carried by WorldNetDaily, an online alternative newspaper, said Kodak’s actions are an example of bigotry and intolerance -- toward people with opinions such as those held by Szabo.

“Diversity is an alluring word that the left utilizes to camouflage its ongoing effort to silence people of faith,” Falwell wrote.

In a separate commentary, the Rev. Louis P. Sheldon, chairman of the Traditional Values Coalition, wrote that he’s worried that the Kodak and other recent cases show that “free speech and religion rights of individuals are being violated by an aggressive minority.”

Szabo declined to comment Tuesday on the advice of a lawyer.

A Kodak spokesman said that while the company does not usually comment on personnel matters, misconceptions in this case warranted a response.

“Mr. Szabo was not -- I repeat, not -- dismissed for holding a particular opinion, and he could have expressed it to supervisors or to human resources without negative consequence,” Gerard Meuchner said. “Instead, he sent his message to other people in his department -- about 1,000 people -- and in the company’s view, this act created the potential for a hostile work environment.”

Meuchner said Szabo was told “that the company did not wish to dismiss him but merely to counsel him about why his conduct was inappropriate. He was not asked to admit his opinions were wrong but to acknowledge that the way in which he communicated them to about 1,000 people was inappropriate. He refused to create and sign documentation to this effect, despite repeated requests, knowing that his refusal would result in his dismissal.”

He added that Szabo “has the right to appeal his dismissal with an employee-based dispute resolution panel.”

Rochester’s largest employer has regularly been recognized as one of the best places to work for gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender employees.

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There is only one thing that really grates on my nerves, and that's fluffy politically correct babble. As each year passes, this gets worse and worse, to the point of it being offensive. Yes I know this may sound crazy to some people, but this P.C. crap really does offend me at points. However, I must give credit to Kodak because I think they have done an excellent job in being fair to everyone with their policies. Their posted values are very well written and I have no reason to believe that as a company they would not follow them. It is clear to me that they are taking an attitude similar to my own. Accept everyone for who they are and let them do whatever they want.

Fortunately for me my only real "racism" is toward people of any age, sex, color or gender preference who continuously talk in P.C. language. So coming from someone who really couldn't give much of a rat's ass about things like this, it is very clear to me that Will is a super-homophobe. The idea of that lifestyle is probably the #1 most disgusting thing in the world to him. And you know what Will? Fine. It is your right to have that opinion, and if that's the way you feel, then I understand completely and you should be free to continue living your life in disgust at what two gay men do together. However there is one thing that I do not agree with, and that is when people force their beliefs on another person. You have in different wording have already expressed this same attitude, but with this one glaring exception towards gays.

In this case, you are forcing your belief onto others that gays are disgusting and should be beaten anytime they even take a look at a straight man and should spend all eternity in hell. Before I go any further let's make one thing really clear. Your belief alone I have no problem with, it's just the preaching and the forcing. I am not a racist guy by any means. I couldn't care less if you were white, black, green, straight, gay, if at one point you were a woman, if you believe in God or even if you worship the swastica. I really don't care, for it's your life and you are entitled to however you want to think. Seriously though, is it REALLY a problem for you knowing that two guys are out there having "backdoor fun" with each other? Does that really affect you in any way? You're not a part of it. You're not watching it. You don't even have to think about it if you don't want to. So really, what's the big deal? Let them go about their lives and you go about yours.

Yes I have a few gay friends. (In fact I probably have gay friends who have not "come out" yet that I don't know about.) Do I run around in public yelling "FAG ALERT!" while I point my finger at them? Of course I don't. First off, it's their decision as to whether to "come out" or not and whatever their decision is, that is their decision that should be respected. Kodak sponsoring a "coming out day" is quite admirable actually. It does not endorse being gay. It only lets their gay employees know that if they want to put an end to the hiding that they will continue to be welcome at their place of employment and will not be discriminated against. And what exactly is wrong with that again?

Have my gay friends ever hit on me? Nope. I have met a few of their gay friends as well and have never been hit on by them either. In fact no gay person has ever tried to "recruit" me. Maybe I'm just not pretty enough. However, if these stories of yours are indeed true about being hit on by gay men so often, then you must be one sexy beast in person because your picture just doesn't show it. (No that wasn't intended to be offensive as I know Will has a good sense of humor.) Before you ask, yes I have been hit on by gay men before too. Might I inquire as to how old the gays were that hit on you were? Would it be worse if they were substantially older? I am 32 and seem to attract the senior citizen gay party. You know what...big deal. Let them have their fantasy. It doesn't hurt me and it doesn't involve me past my saying "no, but thanks for asking", getting a quick blast of cold air up my spine and walking away. Do I walk away offended? No. So how would you react if an 80 year old woman hit on you? Would it be the same way, or would that be ok because it was coming from a woman? What if that woman was black instead of white? What if that woman had some kind of hideous scars from an accident earlier in her life? How about a woman without any legs? At what point are you disgusted enough to feel that violence needs to be brought into the situation? Might I ask how you would react if you were in a room where two women started kissing and taking their clothes off and having sex with each other. Would you be disgusted? Would you threaten them with a beating if they didn't stop? Would you actually inflict physical violence on those two women if they failed to stop? You do know that two women having sex together is also homosexuality, right? I haven't read the Bible from cover to cover so I may have missed a passage, but bringing religion into this example, I'm just betting that two women pleasuring each other wouldn't be acceptable. Can anyone tell me if I am right on this?

Past all this I do have a tip for you, Will. Since being hit on by a guy is so offensive to you, perhaps you should start buttoning up that shirt so the gays can't see that hairy chest of yours.

Now I'll pick on Tim for a minute. So Tim, just for fun what's worse?

• A gay man who believes in God and goes to church and gives to charities and always stops on the side of the road to help people in need and is an upstanding citizen who never shakes his penis more than twice after urinating and takes care of his dying bedridden mother by wiping her ass every time she defacates and was just awarded "employee of the month" at work.

• A straight man who worships Satan and all the evil-doings that accompany that.

• Someone either gay or straight of any race and background who simply does not believe in God or anything religious. When you die, that's it, lights out, nothing else...you won't even know you're dead philosophy.

I'm thinking it is more of a religious thing than a gay thing in your mind. If the Bible did not say that two men should not lay together and that they will be forever punished by being refused admission to heaven, would it be such a big deal? What if there was no reference at all to homosexuality in the Bible? I only bring this up because there are a lot of good, honest people who are upstanding citizens in this world and in essence follow the Bible from one end to the other, but do not fear God nor believe in an all-powerful being. If when they die they find themselves at the ticket taker's stand to heaven, should they be refused admission simply because they did not believe? What if I asked you to prove that there was a God? Can you? There are some people out there that would say you are more crazy than the gays for believing in your faith. What about your parents who in one way of saying it "brainwashed" you during your childhood to believe in God? You weren't ever proven that God exists, right? So you are just believing what your parent's brought you up to believe, right? How do you feel about Mormons vs. Christians? Should one not be given an eternal pass to heaven because they put their faith in the wrong religion?

Am I suggesting you lose even one ounce of your faith in God? Or course not. Am I saying that you are wrong to believe what you believe? No way. However you and Will seem to each have a hot spot here and although there are millions of people who have the same beliefs that you do, there are millions who think you are full of shit. Unfortunately there is no way to end such an argument because by the time anyone here gets "proof", they will be dead.

I am going to quote something because this is worded so well...

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"It has been my experience that some people do indeed pick and choose Biblical passages to match their prejudices and conveniently reject other passages that do not reflect their views. As for me, I look for the underlining meaning behind the texts of the holy books I was raised with to apply to my modern day life. "

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So what do I think? Guess what, it's none of your damn business. I only posted this to get the people who have and have not posted here to think about the racism in their own minds from an opposing view regarding gays and religion and everything else in this world that people have hatred towards. What I believe in this life has nothing to do with Will, Tim or anyone else here. And why is that? It's because I am not going to push my beliefs on such things to others. I'll save the pushing for more important things, like what kind of equipment to buy and the most effective ways of putting on a flawless presentation. I felt the need to post because I just love to argue the opposite point toward anyone who feels overly strong about something. (So seriously guys, no offense was intended toward any of you and no you shouldn't consider my counter-argument my actual beliefs.)

If I agree with any one thing on this thread it's what Adam said. Asian food is definitely disgusting!!!