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Author Topic: Is this a 3 phase electrical outlet?
Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 10-13-2004 12:40 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
On a traditonal 3 wire 120/240V appliance like clothes drier is the frame "grounded' to the neutral?

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Phil Hill
I love my cootie bug

Posts: 7595
From: Hollywood, CA USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 10-13-2004 01:21 PM      Profile for Phil Hill   Email Phil Hill       Edit/Delete Post 
With out getting into the details and/or repeating what I already said about keeping the original cordset/plug...or pointing out that if I modified it, it would void the warranty, I will just point out that Steve did email me yesterday morning about 8am PDT with the correct and helpful info.

Steve wins! [beer]

Seriously jhawk, thanks to both you and Steve for your help! [thumbsup]

>>> Phil

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 10-13-2004 08:04 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
One should NEVER ground to the Neutral. The only point in the USA where Neutral and Ground are of the same potential is at the entrance of the building and on the first Load Center.

Neutral is a current carrying conductor....once current flows, by definition, there is a potential difference (voltage) between the ends.

Ground, on the other hand, should have virtually zero current flow and provides a ground reference at all times. This is particularly important for noise supression and for safety.

I wouldn't be surprised if in the case of a clothes drier that the presumption is that there is a cold water pipe near by to ground the appliance...nowadays...one never knows where PVC might be used so I don't trust water pipes anymore.

Which brings me back to the Type 10 outlets should only be used as replacement items and Type 14 outlets used in new work. It would appear that Phil's toaster had the same line of thinking.

Steve

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Phil Hill
I love my cootie bug

Posts: 7595
From: Hollywood, CA USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 10-13-2004 08:17 PM      Profile for Phil Hill   Email Phil Hill       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Steve Guttag
...grounded...a particularly good safety feature for a toaster...especially if you plan on having your toast while taking a bath...
quote: Steve Guttag
It would appear that Phil's toaster had the same line of thinking.
Gosh Steve, since I don't take a bath ..and I DON'T stink cuz I take showers... I would NEVER think about taking a toaster near a bath... only a shower.

YES! Earth/safety grounds are good! [beer] [thumbsup]

>>> Phil

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Steve Kraus
Film God

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From: Chicago, IL, USA
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 - posted 10-14-2004 07:33 AM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A quick test of a Maytag double-stack W/D showed continuity between frame and plug neutral.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 10-16-2004 10:39 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
WOW is that dangerous and will cause electrical noise elsewhere in the electrical system of the building.

Then again, Christie had no fuses in the AW-3 platter for the longest time and they received UL listing.

Steve

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Bruce McGee
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1776
From: Asheville, NC USA... Nowhere in Particular.
Registered: Aug 1999


 - posted 10-16-2004 07:35 PM      Profile for Bruce McGee   Email Bruce McGee   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I do alot of work on Whirlpool electric dryers. There is a green wire that is attached to the metal cabinet. It is connected to the neutral center connection at the terminal block too.

When I install dryers in homes, I have to carry both 3 prong, and 4 prong power cords for them. If it is a 4 prong, the green wire is connected directly to the frame.

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Steve Kraus
Film God

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From: Chicago, IL, USA
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 - posted 10-16-2004 08:13 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It's probably been done like that all along. The machine in question is about 12-15 years old so not recent but not ancient either. As long as you don't lose neutral continuity it's fine...in the typical situation where it's a single outlet...home run back to entrance panel and often a very short run at that...the only voltage on neutral will be from the voltage drop on the branch circuit and that will only be from the unbalanced part of the current which is all the neutral carries. In this case I presume the motors, timers, and solenoids are on 120 and only the dryer heating element is across 240. Neutraling (is that a verb?) the frame will keep it from going hot if there is an internal short. On the other hand if you lose neutral there doesn't need to be a short. Any one of the 120V components active will make the frame hot. [Mad]

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 10-17-2004 06:02 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm curious as to the circuit that recommends tying the Neutral to the frame. If anything in the connections come loose it could make the frame "hot" as Steve notes above.

I would be interested in the code on the type 10 outlet and I'd bet that their can not be any "branch" circuits so that it is one breaker/fuse per outlet.

Even with all that...tying a neutral to a chassis is just plain stupid and dangerous.

Then again...TVs have always been ungrounded items as have most home appliances.

Steve

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Steve Kraus
Film God

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From: Chicago, IL, USA
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 - posted 10-18-2004 12:01 AM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What do you want to ground in a tv?

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 10-18-2004 12:30 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ideally, anything electrical in a metal cabinet should have the frame of the cabinet grounded. I agree that connecting the neutral (white wire) to ground (green wire) at the appliance or outlet would normally be prohibited.

http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/smallbusiness/sec14.html

quote:
The second kind of ground is equipment grounding. This is accomplished when all metal frames of equipment and enclosures containing electrical equipment or conductors are grounded by means of a permanent and continuous connection or bond. The equipment grounding conductor provides a path for dangerous fault current to return to the system ground at the supply source of the circuit should an insulation failure take place. If installed properly, the equipment grounding conductor is the current path that enables protective devices, such as circuit breakers and fuses, to operate when a fault occurs.

GROUNDING PATH

The path to ground from circuits, equipment, and enclosures shall be permanent and continuous.

This requirement was extracted from NEC 250-51, Effective Grounding Path, which is more complete and fundamental to the understanding of electrical safety. It states that the path to ground:
"shall be permanent and continuous." (If the path is installed in such a way that damage, corrosion, loosening, etc. may impair the continuity during the life of the installation, then shock and burn hazards will develop.)

"shall have capacity to conduct safely any fault current likely to be imposed on it." (Fault currents may be many times normal currents, and such high currents may melt or burn metal at points of poor conductivity. These high temperatures may be a hazard in themselves, and they may destroy the continuity of the ground-fault path.)

"shall have sufficiently low impedance to limit the voltage to ground and to facilitate the operation of the circuit protective devices in the circuit." (If the ground-fault path has a high impedance, there will be hazardous voltages whenever fault currents attempt to flow. Also, if the impedance is high, the fault current will be limited to some value so low that the fuse or circuit breaker will not operate promptly, if at all.)
It is important to remember the following regarding safe grounding paths:
The fault current in A-C circuits will be limited by the sum of resistance and reactance, and the only low-reactance path is that which closely follows the circuit conductors.

If a metallic raceway system is used, make sure that the metallic system is continuous and permanent.

In cases where a metallic raceway system is not used, provide a green or bare equipment-grounding conductor close to the supply conductors to assure that all enclosures are bonded together and to the source.


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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 10-18-2004 06:04 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I remember a metal cabinet TV years ago. It sounded tinny.

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