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This topic comprises 3 pages: 1 2 3
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Topic: Free To Air (FTA) Satellite receivers, Anyone getting their Premium TV via satellite?
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Erick Akers
Arse Kicker
Posts: 201
From: Dallas, TX, USA
Registered: May 2001
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posted 12-12-2005 12:37 PM
quote:
Mike Williams :
I've got to ask...
If the channels are not scrambled or encrypted, how is it considered stealing? I could definitely see an argument for it being illegal if there was some process involved to descramble the signal, but this is not the case. You can receive it just by tuning to the channel and it is not scrambled.
Let me clarify,
1.Viewing open satellite signals(not scrambled) is completely legal!
2. It is also legal to descramble foreign satellite signals from
services not offered in your country of origin, Period!
We don't have an international law agreement with any country dealing with theft of their services, nor do they have one with us in regards to viewing ours.
Conversely, other countries can also do the same without fear of prosecution!
As I stated earlier, this is a grey area in law when dealing with pay services only.
There is only one rule to be on the safe side:
Do not Steal services offered in your country!
If anyone had bothered to view my profile, they might have noticed that I am a satellite dealer. I sell many types of systems and subscriptions for all services, and I have been in business since 1984.
I am very current on the laws regarding this situation.
Phil mentioned hack cards:
FTA receivers dont use them.
As defined by law they are not concidered as hack equipment!
O.J. may not have been convicted of murder, but he was caught in a sting dealing with theft of services of Direct TV. He pled guilty to posession of modified Direct TV receivers.
He also had in his possession FTA receivers, but was not convicted for them due to the letter of the law as defined.
FTA receivers are not illegal in any country and are based on the DVB (digital video broadcast)format which is the world standard.
1. they are not addressable.
2. they are not modified.
3. they are not property of the pay services that they can receive.
Though they can be programmed for reception of pay services,there's way more open free and clear stations for anyone without stealing services.
The bitch fest started when Phil went on a personal attack.
quote:
Phil Hill:
Erick, get off the I-30 stuff... posting and announcing about your illegal activities on a public website opens you up to the Satellite/Cable Police
quote: Phil Hill
The words "your" and "you" were meant as a general hyperbole to mean "ALL" in general... not *YOU* specifically Erick.
One Word, BULLSHIT!
This may have been a warning, but also a personal attack!
I can diagram a sentance, and this still pisses me off!
( Erick, posting your activities on a website opens you up)
Quite personalised, dont you think? ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
It was his opinion, and he made his point and I dont hate or dislike him for it.
All I wanted to do was share another hobby that I enjoy with others. If it's not your thing that's cool!
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Erick Akers
Arse Kicker
Posts: 201
From: Dallas, TX, USA
Registered: May 2001
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posted 12-13-2005 07:00 AM
quote:
Greg Mueller said:
Compairing your situation to making DVD players regionless doesn't wash either. When you access the firmware in a DVD player you are not taking anything that you are supposed to pay for. So that's not theft of service in any form.
Yes it is!
And case you missed it, I am a legitamate paying suscriber! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Use your ![[eyes]](graemlins/eyes.gif) and read more closely!
Please check your facts if you are not sure!
Under section 1201 and 1204 of the Digital Millinium Copyright Act (DMCA), It's considered unlawful to circumvent technology that limits access to copyrighted work.
And.....
Punishment for violating the statute is a maximum of 5 years in prison and a $500,000 fine.
That's why there is a region code.
Our friends at the MPAA insisted this be inacted to prevent other countries from viewing a DVD release before the theater run was compleated.
This is "theft of services" as the DVD release is not available (baring world wide release), during the features first and second run, cheating all parties involved from first generation profits,and sales taxes.
If you run a theater, would you not feel cheated out of your profits if the DVD was released the same day?
quote:
Daryl C.W. O'Shea Said:
Even if that is completely true, which I'm quite sure it isn't but don't care enough to look something up to cite, a lack of "an international law agreement with any country dealing with theft of their services" does not protect an individual from civil litigation which you would surely lose -- just like the swaths of people successfully sued by DirecTV in Canada.
Sorry,
You're also Wrong!!!
I'll give you this, this lawsuit originated in Hamilton; your home base, but you failed to keep up with current events as they happened around you and the final outcome of them!
Daryl,
So far it makes a difference in your country.
Are you against your own constitutional rights as a Canadian Citizen? You Didn't care to check your facts either! ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Un believeable!
I thought you guys were against giving up your rights; in fact you guys fight for them!
That's why I have more respect for my Canadian Brethern!
As U.S. citizens, we don't act on the loss of our constitutional rights, but complain constantly when we loose them! ![[thumbsdown]](graemlins/thumbsdown.gif)
Unless I am mistaken,
The CTRC bill C-22 has not passed!
So as of now, reception of Scrambled American Signals is still legal and concidered "Public Domain" in Canada!
Now that your government has decided to start from scratch with a new election,It is a dead issue now!
As Such, The rulng by Judge Danielle Coate Still stands. Want to call her? I have her direct line!
[QUÉBEC COURT RULES CANADIAN SATELLITE TV LAW UNCONSTITUTIONAL!]
Pulse 24 Dish-Affected Viewers
Those that were persued by Direct TV in Canada were aquitted, and the equipment returned to the owners. ![[thumbsup]](graemlins/thumbsup.gif)
The Direct TV lawsuit didn't stand up in your court!
All I'm asking is for everyone to check the real facts, and proove me wrong on the law regarding FTA receivers!
Greg,
The purpose was education!
I changed the post, not only to protect the site but to also let others know that there are indeed other Legal Free and clear unscrambled channels! If You don't want to check it out it's your loss, not mine!
The post was originally started and worded as friendly
tongue -in- cheek conversation, but you guys (Phil-Greg-Daryl) turned it into a free for all on me!
quote:
Phill Hill:
Anyway, I really don't care one way or another and it certainly IS NOT an issue I'm gonna waste my time on researching here on FT. You've stated your opinion and I've stated mine. It certainly doesn't mean I dislike or hate you...as you seem to think. We just have a legitimate difference of opinion on this issue.
Stick a fork in me, I'm done...I've said my piece and said what I wanted to say... Have at me, y'all
Can't keep your word, can you Phil?
Must be time well wasted!
BTW: Awww! Phil your baby picture was so cute, but you looked like you needed your dipee changed!
If you can't say something nice......
Please don't say anything at all!
Cheers!
![[beer]](graemlins/beer.gif)
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Mitchell Dvoskin
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1869
From: West Milford, NJ, USA
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 12-13-2005 09:17 AM
There seems to be a lot of confusion on this thread, let me try to clear up some.
This applies to the USA only:
The DVD Region Coding has not been considered a copy protection scheme by the courts, mainly because when it was introduced, it was not represented as such, it was represented as a technological solution to prevent grey market items (legitimate products from a different market). In the USA, grey market items are, and have been for years legal, and the courts have consistantly upheld the right of consumers to buy legitimate items from overseas sources over the objections of the domestic rights holder. Nothing in the Digital Millenium Copyright act addresses the grey market issue one way or another.
As Erick has pointed out, and thousands of big dish owners have known for years, it that there are hundreds of FREE, unscrambled, channels available, including many that DirecTV and Dish Network charge for on their repective systems. Yes, if you hack a DirectTV or Dish Network box to receive these channels in the USA you are breaking the law, since it is illegal to unscramble encrypted signals without authorization. What Erick is talking about however, is receiving the unencrypted source signal via a big dish and a modified big dish receiver. As these source signals are not encrypted, they are legal under US law for anyone to receive.
Program providers send up their programming up to a satellite, which beams it back down. Cable companies and small dish providers pick up these signals, encrypt them, and re-send them to their paid subscribers. While some program suppliers encrypt their original signal, many do not and these are perfectly legal for anyone to receive, if you have the equipment.
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Daryl C. W. O'Shea
Film God
Posts: 3977
From: Midland Ontario Canada (where Panavision & IMAX lenses come from)
Registered: Jun 2002
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posted 12-13-2005 11:07 AM
quote: Erick Akers
I'll give you this, this lawsuit originated in Hamilton; your home base, but you failed to keep up with current events as they happened around you and the final outcome of them!
The fact is I couldn't care less about the outcome. I do not enjoy American television, nor do I agree with the opinion that it's reception by non-paying entities should be legal. I've got no problem with people receiving it if they pay for it though.
Regarding events in Hamilton, I'm far more interested in the outcome of decisions with vastly more widespread and significant effect such as the restructuring of Stelco, the possible sale of Dofasco to US interests, the new research park, and the planned decommissioning of McMaster's nuclear reactor (which I'm against). Being a seasonal resident of the city, my concerns also span other municipalities and of course issues with effects across the province and country. In particular, my current societal issue of great interest is wind generator farms (I'm against them -- I believe the money should be spent on nuclear energy facilities). Of course, as one of the developers of one of the leading spam filtering engines and products in the world, I spend a disproportionate amount of time on all matters, technical and societal regarding email and data communication systems in general.
quote: Erick Akers
Are you against your own constitutional rights as a Canadian Citizen?
As far as I know, theft isn't a a protected right under the Constitution Acts, 1867 to 1982. Like many Canadians I don't agree with many of the Quebec Court's rulings, including their opinion that the unauthorized decryption of foreign broadcasts, nor data, is legal. Especially those of a member of a trading zone. Not only is it in my opinion unethical, it deters the furthering or our country's interests with such trading partners.
quote: Erick Akers
You Didn't care to check your facts either!
Correct. I thought this was just a friendly discussion looking for opinion (just like every other thread here). I wasn't aware that I needed to come fully armed and swinging. It looked interesting enough to break up the monotony of sitting, writing, proctoring and marking exams.
quote: Erick Akers
QUÉBEC COURT RULES CANADIAN SATELLITE TV LAW UNCONSTITUTIONAL!
What else is new, the Quebec Court rules everything not originated in Quebec unconstitutional.
quote: Erick Akers
The CTRC bill C-22 has not passed! ... Now that your government has decided to start from scratch with a new election, It is a dead issue now!
Contrary to the "all government business is dropped upon the disillusion of parliament" buzz line, while true, does not make bills dead issues. In most cases, bills with any significance will be reintroduced in the next parliament and often passed, especially if the party previously in power heads the new parliament.
quote: Erick Akers
All I'm asking is for everyone to check the real facts, and proove me wrong on the law regarding FTA receivers!
I'm only disputing the ethics and rationality of "using" the intended subscription services of private (or even public) entities, regardless of political borders.
As you mentioned your respect for Canadians standing up for their rights, I'm sure you'll respect my right to have the opinion that the free-loading of services, without the authorization of the service provider, across boarders (or even within borders) is unethical, even if it may be legal. After all, why should you fund my television service, and why should I fund yours?
Laws don't get made, nor changed, by people with opinion that the current laws are appropriate and all encompassing.
quote: Erick Akers
The post was originally started and worded as friendly
tongue -in- cheek conversation, but you guys (Phil-Greg-Daryl) turned it into a free for all on me!
Just because no one else that has posted has agreed with your position, doesn't make it a free for all. I just happen not to agree with your position, but I'm sure that there are other Film-Tech Forum members that do agree with you but would rather not post for whatever reason.
Again, not a free for all, just a debate. I'm confident that you knew that it would be debated before you even posted it and is likely the reason why you posted it. It would be incomprehensible to think otherwise given the history of nearly everything being debated on these forums.
Then again, as you've pointed out I am Canadian so maybe I'm just too thick skinned to notice.
Now that I've answered your questions, I'll only ask you two of my own.
quote: Erick Akers
This is "theft of services" as the DVD release is not available (baring world wide release), during the features first and second run, cheating all parties involved from first generation profits,and sales taxes.
If you run a theater, would you not feel cheated out of your profits if the DVD was released the same day?
How would this be different from viewing pay-per-view movies, not yet available in sell-thru, from the US that aren't yet on pay-per-view in Canada (or vice versa)?
quote: Erick Akers
Under section 1201 and 1204 of the Digital Millinium Copyright Act (DMCA), It's considered unlawful to circumvent technology that limits access to copyrighted work.
All of the content broadcast on all of the Canadian satellite television systems are copyrighted. How is following your suggestion of "only stealing services from outside your country" not unlawful under the DCMA? I'm positive that you were referring to "stealing" (your words) subscription services and not free to air feeds.
Finally, I find it odd that you use the word "steal" but argue that those with the opinion that it (stealing) is wrong are incorrect.
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Erick Akers
Arse Kicker
Posts: 201
From: Dallas, TX, USA
Registered: May 2001
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posted 12-13-2005 02:30 PM
Daryl,
Really, all I wanted to do was share a hobby. It only became a debate when a certan person who supposedly said his piece, went for the juggular.
While it is true that subjects here do sometimes become hottly debated; I honestly didn't think that satellite TV DX'ing remotely had a chance,otherwise, I would never have started the post in the first place. ![[uhoh]](graemlins/uhoh.gif)
Everyone here has diferent ethical opinions in one way or another, but I was only defending the legality,not ethics.
I thought you were just joining the pride, and feeding off of my carcas along with everyone else, when you said that you were quite sure that that my statement was false!
I do respect your opinion; highly in fact , so when you failed to check the facts, which is unusual for you, I misread your post as gang mentality, not as an open debate! After being verbally slammed around, I just wanted to make sure this wasn't the case.
Thank you for making it clear, and I truely apologise, no harm or disrespect intended to you.
As far as I can tell from watching your satellite services, (which BTW I would gladly subscribe, as I agree with you about American TV )
We share the exact same release schedual PPV movies and events. I'm not sure as far as DVD's are released in Canada, but the PPV movies are only available here after the DVD has been out for about two weeks or longer, but that wasn't the case two years ago!
The mention of the Digital Millinium Copyright Act; was in regards to a link posted here at F-T, that I followed on DVD Player software.I have studied and researched and believe me I looked thoroughly; the DMCA does not,and has not been ammended to include FTA Satellite receivers.
The services I referred to as stealing, would be what was legally available in your country for subscription. I.E. Bell expressVu if you were receiving them illegally, and Dish Network if I was receiving them illegally.
I think Mitchell slightly mispoke when he said modified big dish receiver. I think he ment Digital big dish Receiver as nothing has been modified.
The signal inters from the IF output of the analog receiver to the IF input on the digital receiver, allowing the master receiver to act as the satellite positioner.
Thanks Mitchell for shining some light and joining the former discussion, now debate!
James,
Not yet, but I could send you a link for downloading and printing your own!
Erick.
[ 12-13-2005, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: Erick Akers ]
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