my profile | my password | search | faq & rules | forum home

» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Community   » Film-Yak   » Air France plane crash at Toronto (Page 2)

This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3

Author Topic: Air France plane crash at Toronto Daryl C. W. O'Shea Film God Posts: 3977 From: Midland Ontario Canada (where Panavision & IMAX lenses come from) Registered: Jun 2002 posted 08-03-2005 06:18 PM                        Well, they did all walk away from this one. So what's your problem with the pilot, other than he let the co-pilot try to land it?  |  IP: Logged Paul Mayer Oh get out of it Melvin, before it pulls you under! Posts: 3836 From: Albuquerque, NM Registered: Feb 2000 posted 08-03-2005 06:33 PM                        A good landing when a great one was called for. You know, a "great" landing as in being able to use the aircraft again. Anyone want to buy a slightly used scratch and dent A-340? Thanks for the pic Daryl. Look at those tracks! Right down the centerline, body gear and nose gear in line, even with that quartering tailwind. BTW, great ARFF response by the guys at YYZ!  |  IP: Logged Phil Hill I love my cootie bug Posts: 7595 From: Hollywood, CA USA Registered: Mar 2000 posted 08-03-2005 06:39 PM                  Daryl, I don't know why you're getting your panties all tied up in a knot at me... Yes I know EVERYONE walked away... AND THAT IS GREAT! I didn't just fall off the turnip truck ya know. I was making general statement. I do believe the lack of deaths in this particular incident was due to luck and mostly to the professionalism, cool heads, and dedication of the cabin crew. But, as you put it, *MY* problem with that particular pilot is he KNEW and was warned there were dangerous winds and storm conditions and elected to land anyway. At least that's the info us peons here in Texas have for now. (Edit: Corrected typo) [ 08-03-2005, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: Phil Hill ]  |  IP: Logged Will Kutler Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1506 From: Tucson, AZ, USA Registered: Feb 2001 posted 08-03-2005 07:29 PM                     I was stationed at RAF Upper Heyford in support of Desert Storm. While in the UK, a friend and I went to tour Duxford Air Musuem. It was an EXTREMELY windy day, so it was interesting (and suprising) to see a Spitfire (I believe the one belonging to The Old Flying Machine Company) out flying around. Now my friend and I were standing on the spectators side of the fence, right next to a PBY Catalina Flying Boat. The pilot attempted several go arounds before commencing with his final approach. That wind was really tossing that plane around! Upon touching down, the pilot managed to catch the left wing tip in the (dirt/grass) airstrip. The aircraft did a 90 degree pivot and started comming directly toward us and the PBY! My friend and I took off a running! Luckily the aircraft stopped and no extra damage was done. Now my friend and I are both amateur photographers and were burning as much film as we could. Unfortunately, neither of us had motor drives, but between the two of us, we got the entire sequence of events on film. Cheers K.  |  IP: Logged Daryl C. W. O'Shea Film God Posts: 3977 From: Midland Ontario Canada (where Panavision & IMAX lenses come from) Registered: Jun 2002 posted 08-03-2005 07:43 PM                        I'm just yanking your chain Phil. The way the weather was yesterday (and today -- and most of the last two months, especially the last two weeks) I'm really not surprised they landed. The weather was quite sporadic (the warnings were on and off all day) and there really weren't that many diversions to other airports. Based on some brief shots from a helicopter, it looks like they may have seriously overshot and missed more of the runway than the amount of grass they dug up. In any case, it was some 10 year co-pilot that landed it. I guess the captain was in the back having dinner.  |  IP: Logged Phil Hill I love my cootie bug Posts: 7595 From: Hollywood, CA USA Registered: Mar 2000 posted 08-03-2005 07:55 PM                  quote: Daryl C. W. O'Shea I'm just yanking your chain Phil. You jerk! But, I deserved it! I'm sooo darn gullible! I didn't even see it coming! I OWE you and WILL get even! HA!  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 08-04-2005 03:57 AM                        Some 'expert' speculated on the radio last night that the new European Union compensation rules might have something to do with this. These say that any EU-based airline operating a flight into or out of an airport in the EU must pay passengers compensation at a fixed rate for delays over X hours, put them up in hotels if delayed, AND (in some circumstances) refund the price of their tickets. I can't remember the exact details, but this was alleged to be behind the decision by the captain of a BA jumbo to continue to London after one of its engines broke down shortly after leaving Los Angeles a few months ago. Basically, if it had gone back and landed in LA, BA would have been looking at a six-figure compensation bill by the time those passengers would have been on their way again. In the event it ran low on fuel over the Atlantic, couldn't make it to London and had to make an emergency landing at Manchester. The 'expert' speculated that the same economics might apply, that the captain was under pressure from his bosses to avoid delays and that this was why the AF A340 attempted to land in very dodgy weather. If there's any truth in that, I'm very relieved that the two trips to the US I'll be making in the next four months will both be on Northwest (not an EU-based airline, so these rules don't apply), even if they do still use antiquated DC-10s.  |  IP: Logged Paul Mayer Oh get out of it Melvin, before it pulls you under! Posts: 3836 From: Albuquerque, NM Registered: Feb 2000 posted 08-04-2005 11:47 AM                        That speculation is making the rounds here too, though I thought the new EU rules applied only to departure delays. Will have to go read up on that. Of course everyone in airline management denies this. But it wouldn't surprise me to find out that the technical ops people are being leaned on heavily to minimize any chance of flight delays. Since captains have to retake both their checkrides and their medical exams every six months, there are ample opportunities for management to punish those who don't tow the line. I've seen checkride pass criteria change pretty abruptly based on whether the candidate was "in favor" at the time or not, usually during new-hire or upgrade evaluation rides, but it can happen on 6-month checks too, usually over things like union issues. Failing a checkride is a huge hassle, messing up work schedules for both the airline and the captain candidate until it gets resolved. It can be a living hell. Like I said earlier, it'll be interesting to see how this one pans out. It'll be a hot topic for discussion in several of the courses I'm teaching this year.  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 08-04-2005 02:31 PM                        quote: Paul Mayer That speculation is making the rounds here too, though I thought the new EU rules applied only to departure delays. Will have to go read up on that. I did the looking up when I was sorting out my San José trip next month: basically, in order to be eligible for the compensation, the airline with which you're booked has to be a company registered in an EU member state, and the flight either has to be starting from and/or arriving in an EU member state. The 'with which you're booked' bit is important: for example, the first and last legs of my trip will be on KLM, but since they're code sharing flights with NW and my ticket was bought from NW (i.e. I'm booked onto flight no. NW8774, not KL8774), I won't get any compensation if it crashes into the North Sea and I have to swim the rest of the way to Amsterdam. IMHO the new rules are utterly moronic: the only effect they're having is to drive up the price of tickets on the 'no frills' airlines. Anyone who is so utterly stupid as to take a foreign trip without travel insurance (£20 per trip, if that) deserves everything they get if their flight is cancelled, or the airline goes bust and leaves them stranded in some tin shack terminal building in the wilds of Sodomistan. If they do have travel insurance, that'll take care of getting them home and all the expenses involved, so there's no need for any compensation from the airline.  |  IP: Logged Paul Mayer Oh get out of it Melvin, before it pulls you under! Posts: 3836 From: Albuquerque, NM Registered: Feb 2000 posted 08-08-2005 01:37 PM                        Early indications are that AF358 landed long, i.e. touched down 4000' down a 9000' wet runway with a tailwind. No indications of hydroplaning. Will be fun to hear how they got themselves into that situation. Definitely a CRM scenario for the simulator. Leo, "stranded in some tin shack terminal building in the wilds of Sodomistan". I love it. Will have to figure out a way to use that in one of my lectures. [ 08-08-2005, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: Paul Mayer ]  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 08-08-2005 03:49 PM                        quote: Paul Mayer Will be fun to hear how they got themselves into that situation. If there wasn't any technical fault with the aircraft, it's starting to look like those pilots just forfeited their no claims bonus! It's still a miracle that this is all they lost, though. I don't know how much a new A340 costs (tens of millions of dollars/euros, probably), but compared to the worst case scenario, it's only money. As for Sodomistan, I wish I could claim the credit... but in fact I nicked it from the Noel Coward song 'The Grand Ayatollah of Sodomistan' (was a fellow who only had one arm), written around the time of the Suez crisis and which has to be one of the most politically incorrect songs ever recorded. I've got a 78 of it in the garage somewhere: will have to dig it out and transfer it to MP3 when I get a moment. Meanwhile, it was mentioned on the radio this morning that maintenance engineers at Northwest are very likely to be going on strike later this month. The airline says that it won't affect flights because it's 'made contingencies', but an aviation expert (yet another one) they wheeled on to provide a soundbite opined that US domestic flights could be seriously hit. Paul: do you think I'm in for any fun and games here? My trip involves Amsterdam-Minneapolis-San José on Northwest on Tuesday 6 September, and then Seattle-Memphis-Amsterdam on NW on Friday 16th. I'm insured and have confirmed with them that if things go seriously wrong and as a last resort, they'll put me on another airline: but being realistic, should I be factoring in time for delays or is this likely to have fizzled out within a week or so? Many thanks in advance. I fear that the looming strike might explain the reason why NW was £100 cheaper than any of the alternatives...  |  IP: Logged Paul Mayer Oh get out of it Melvin, before it pulls you under! Posts: 3836 From: Albuquerque, NM Registered: Feb 2000 posted 08-08-2005 08:45 PM                        I guess about $200 million USD list price for an A340-313X, though nobody pays list, just like in our business. Airbus and Boeing both heavily discount. Air France has been a good customer to both so I'm sure they get a good break on aircraft prices. Insurance will probably pick up most of this one anyway. Ship F-GLZQ RIP. Yeah, NWA's mechanics have walked away from any further talks, but it's really hard to predict what will happen to daily operations or more importantly, when. The timing of any labor action is completely up to the mechanics now. In preparation NWA has hired plenty of strike breakers to cover routine line operations and can quickly outsource any heavy MRO work. I don't think the union's membership has taken a strike vote yet. We'll just have to watch the news for any announced action dates. The union may try targeting selected hubs at selected peak times with things like work-to-rule slowdowns and sickouts, or they may go for a system-wide walkout. If either happens and there is no contract in effect, NWA can just lock all of the mechanics out system-wide at that point and bring in the replacements. Operations could get very shaky schedule-wise at that point with so many new people jumping in all at once. It will take a few weeks after that to shake everything down. By then there will be plenty of incentive for both sides to get back to the bargaining table. NWA is already on the short list to go TU, bleeding millions every month, and this situation may provide just the nudge needed to finish the job. Trip cancellation insurance during this time is a very good idea. [ 12-19-2005, 10:19 PM: Message edited by: Paul Mayer ]  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 08-08-2005 10:18 PM                     quote: Paul Mayer No indications of hydroplaning. Paul, Are you kiddin man.... I've had many pilots tell me that if it were not for thrust reversers that most planes would never stop on wet or icy runways. That brakes aone are useless in most cases on just slightly wet surfaces at that speed and trying to stop that much tonnage.  |  IP: Logged Michael Schaffer "Where is the Boardwalk Hotel?" Posts: 4143 From: Boston, MA Registered: Apr 2002 posted 08-08-2005 10:29 PM                        quote: Leo Enticknap I did the looking up when I was sorting out my San José trip next month: basically, in order to be eligible for the compensation, the airline with which you're booked has to be a company registered in an EU member state, and the flight either has to be starting from and/or arriving in an EU member state. Is the UK currently an EU member state? I could never figure out if they really were, or if they just needed the subventions, so they faked membership.  |  IP: Logged Paul Mayer Oh get out of it Melvin, before it pulls you under! Posts: 3836 From: Albuquerque, NM Registered: Feb 2000 posted 08-08-2005 11:16 PM                        TSB guy says no evidence of either hydroplaning or systems malfunctions (brakes and reversers) at this point. Even without hydroplaning a wet runway does mean a longer stopping distance. I think these guys may have had the bad luck to have a microburst unload behind them just as they got into the flare, making a bad situation even worse.  |  IP: Logged

All times are Central (GMT -6:00)

This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3

Printer-friendly view of this topic

Hop To: Select a Forum: Category: Operations -------------------- Digital Cinema Forum Film Handlers' Forum Large Format Forum Ground Level Feature Info, Trailer Attachments & REAL Credit Offsets Category: Community -------------------- Film-Yak Film Handlers' Movie Reviews The Afterlife Bob Maar's Joke-A-Thon Category: Classified -------------------- Equipment and Supplies Wanted/For Sale Help Wanted/Seeking Employment Category: System -------------------- Software Beta Testing Forum

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.