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This topic comprises 7 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
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Author
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Topic: Opinions on Conceal Carry Permits?
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Phil Hill
I love my cootie bug
Posts: 7595
From: Hollywood, CA USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 07-28-2007 05:03 PM
While I can certainly understand Bobby's concern for his personal safety, the actual "packin'" of a handgun may present more risk than safety.
I have thought about carrying a pistol many times whenever I see the news about some of the senseless carjackings, robberies, freeway shootings, etc. Even though one keeps clear of the "undesirable" areas, there are low-life POS assholes all over. It may be just a matter of luck...being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I'm not sure that if I was confronted with the "THREAT" of crime that I could actually pull the trigger to kill another human. That sure is a hard decision. BUT! As the saying goes...If you carry a handgun you MUST be prepared to use it. If you hesitate, you may be the one killed.
Like Mark, I also have a .357, but I keep it at home. If some POS would break into my house or take a shot at me, assuming they would miss at the 1st shot, I definitely would shoot them dead. I think it's important to kill them... if ya don't, they and the defense lawyer probably would sue you for pain and suffering and make the jerk look like a saint and you Satan. ...Poor babies! HA!
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Leo Enticknap
Film God
Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 07-28-2007 05:26 PM
quote: Phil Hill
I'm not sure that if I was confronted with the "THREAT" of crime that I could actually pull the trigger to kill another human. That sure is a hard decision. BUT! As the saying goes...If you carry a handgun you MUST be prepared to use it. If you hesitate, you may be the one killed.
There's surely a threat in the other direction, too: that, in the heat of the moment, you would pull the trigger when there wasn't a threat.
In particular, one incident happened to me that caused me to think about this. I was on a train from Glasgow to York in the summer of 2003, and had sat in the 'quiet carriage', in which you're not supposed to use mobile phones, iPods, etc. There was a bloke sitting at the next table who received three phone calls in succession. After his phone rang the third time, I went up to him, pointed out the 'No mobiles' sticker on the window and said, 'I'm really tired and could do with a couple of hours' peace from the bleeping noise. Any chance you could switch it off or move to the next carriage?'. His response was to take a flick knife from his pocket, show it to me, and suggest that if I bothered him again I would require the assistance of the National Health Service (or worse).
I was so angry that if I'd had a gun, I'd have shot him there and then. I really am not joking - I'd have pulled the trigger without a second thought, and probably more than once. The night after the incident, I remember trying to get to sleep and thinking, 'if only I'd had a gun'. This guy was a yob and a moron and he deserved to be held to account for what he did (which he eventually was). But after calming down and thinking about it, I don't think he really intended to use the knife on me, and in any case he certainly didn't deserve to die. But if I'd have had the concealed gun in my pocket at the time of the incident, I honestly think I would have shot him. Speaking purely personally, and not wanting to apply that experience to a society I've never lived in or experienced day to day, it made me see at least a little bit of logic as to why the law never let me carry a gun around in the first place.
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 07-28-2007 07:13 PM
quote: Phil Hill
As the saying goes...If you carry a handgun you MUST be prepared to use it. If you hesitate, you may be the one killed.
This is one of the reasons why people have to take classes to get a carry permit and also why additional self defense classes are recommended.
Lots of people have misgivings about what they legally can and cannot do in using a firearm to defend themselves, even in their own home.
In Oklahoma, we have what some refer to as a "make my day law." Many believe that law gives them the freedom to automatically shoot any intruder who breaks into their home. Unfortunately, it's not that simple. For instance, if the guy is trying to escape from your house and you shoot him in the back that can get you into very deep trouble.
The "make my day law" is meant to legally protect home owners from a very real and dangerous scenario: A criminal breaks into your home while you are there. He appears to be unarmed. But you have a gun. So the guy rushes at you. Some people may think they don't have the right to shoot since the adversary doesn't have a gun. But that's not true. If the intruder overpowers you he could kill you with your own weapon. Therefore, you do have the right to use force, even deadly force to keep the potential attacker at bay.
Here's the text from Title 21 § 1289.25. of the Oklahoma Self Defense Act of 2005:
quote: OK SDA Law Book 2005
PHYSICAL OR DEADLY FORCE AGAINST INTRUDER
A. The Legislature hereby recognizes that the citizens of the State of Oklahoma have a right to expect absolute safety within their own homes.
B. Any occupant of a dwelling is justified in using any degree of physical force, including but not limited to deadly force, against another person who has made an unlawful entry into that dwelling and when the occupant has a reasonable belief that such other person might use any physical force, no matter how slight, against any occupant of the dwelling.
C. Any occupant of a dwelling using physical force, including but not limited to deadly force, pursuant to the provisions of subsection B of this section, shall have an affirmative defense in any criminal prosecution for an offense arising from the reasonable use of such force and shall be immune from any civil liability for injuries or death resulting from the reasonable use of such force.
D. The provisions of this section and the provisions of the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act, Sections 1 through 25 of this act, shall not be construed to require any person using a pistol pursuant to the provisions of this section to be licensed in any manner.
quote: Leo Enticknap
There's surely a threat in the other direction, too: that, in the heat of the moment, you would pull the trigger when there wasn't a threat.
Again, this is why classes are important.
Essentially, private citizens are subject to the same restrictions police have to observe in the reasonable use of deadly force.
This is also why just about any state that grants conceal carry permits has certain restrictions on where concealed weapons cannot be carried.
In Oklahoma, it is against the law to carry a concealed weapon onto school property or into a government operated building or even into meetings of government officials even if the meeting is taking place on non-government property. You certainly cannot carry a concealed weapon into a bar. Professional sporting events are off limits, and so are places where "pari-mutuel wagering" takes place (I assume that means a horse racing or dog racing track or an off track betting place).
There are many punishable offenses for irresponsible, reckless gun use -some of which are felony offenses.
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Wayne Keyser
Master Film Handler
Posts: 272
From: Arlington, Virginia, USA
Registered: May 2004
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posted 07-28-2007 08:51 PM
Because you're asking "should I get a permit", you're clearly conflicted.
Do a balance-sheet: "pro" vs "con."
You've cited several reasons why you'd feel more comfortable with a weapon (unless I've missed it, you didn't state whether you picture mostly carrying it on your person, or keeping it in your vehicle). Now list reasons why you might not want to carry. Here are some ideas:
I know myself, and I think I might tend to feel entirely too bold as time passes, and venture too freely into places where I might be in danger (carrying is no guarantee that you won't be hurt or killed anyway).
I would have to remember not to carry in places I didn't used to go (schools, etc) without thinking.
Just because I'm allowed to carry legally doesn't mean that the presence of my weapon won't intimidate friends, or provoke strangers.
What do respected gun store owners/employees suggest? (I'm sure you can sort out the braggadocio from the advice that comes from experience).
What does my Significant Other say?
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Make your own list - make a decision and proceed with confidence. And remember the advice the Master gave Kwai Chang Caine: "Rather than kill, injure. Rather than injure, resist. Rather than resist, run away."
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 07-29-2007 01:40 AM
quote: Wayne Keyser
Just because I'm allowed to carry legally doesn't mean that the presence of my weapon won't intimidate friends, or provoke strangers.
If your friends are able to see the weapon then you obviously are not doing a good enough job on keeping it concealed. There's a lot of different ways how one can keep a gun out of sight. Inside the pants gun holsters are a pretty good solution.
This issue also comes down to carrying the right kind of weapon for conceal carry purposes.
I own a Sig Sauer P226R. The "R" part of the term means it has a tactical "rail" for attaching things like gun mounted flashlights, lasers, etc. But it's a full size "commander" style pistol not really well accustomed to conceal carry use. With a permit, I'd have no problem packing that gun away in my truck or taking it with me to work, etc.
I believe Sigarms makes some of the highest quality firearms anyone can buy anywhere. The only thing better is custom made product from a legendary gunsmith. There's a multitude of law enforcement agencies and military organizations in the United States who swear by Sig Sauer pistols. The Navy Seals, U.S. Coast Guard, U.S. Air Marshalls, The Secret Service, Texas Rangers, Texas Dept. of Public Safety, Virgina State Patrol, Ohio State Patrol, Delaware State Police and many more carry Sig Sauer firearms as their duty pistols. They cost twice as much as a garden variety Glock. But they work with a much greater degree of reliability.
Still, I'm thinking about getting a more compact kind of a sidearm. I'm not into Glocks very much. In fact, I think Glocks are just shit. Lots of people love them though. But I've heard lots of problem stories regarding them as well. Our own local police dept. uses .45 caliber Glock pistols as their standard duty sidearm. Most of the officers don't like them for various reasons.
If I have to buy an additional pistol, I'm leaning toward getting a sub-compact Heckler & Koch semi auto handgun. Something like a P2000 SK perhaps. Costs a lot. But if I can't carry a Sig, then a H&K would probably be the next best choice.
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