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Author Topic: Flying Lessons (questions) Jason Black Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1723 From: Myrtle Beach, SC, USA Registered: Nov 2000 posted 09-18-2007 09:26 PM                        Wow! You guys have some GREAT information! I'm getting decent feedback on another forum as well.. A few civil and military pilots there to.. I'l plan to dive into this a little more towards the end of the year when I have a *little* more free time, and hopefully, the funds to move forward, which is what it ALL hinges on anyway. No Dough, No Go.. Thanks for the pointers and keep the advice coming.. I neglected to mention that a few others from work would like to get their license as well.. and we're talking about partnering on a plane... twin engine.. like this.. http://cgi.ebay.com/1977-CESSNA-414-Lowest-Total-Time_W0QQitemZ110171835279QQihZ001QQcategoryZ63678QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem [ 09-18-2007, 10:27 PM: Message edited by: Jason Black ]  |  IP: Logged Louis Bornwasser Film God Posts: 4441 From: prospect ky usa Registered: Mar 2005 posted 09-19-2007 10:40 AM                        Jason: Dreams are wonderful. When you go to get insurance, you will be judged by the member with the least time and experience. I would guess that insurance for that aircraft will be in excess of $20k/year plus yearly Flight Safety training for all pilots. I traded a Navajo back to a 210. For partnerships, think of a 182/206 which will be more economical and reasonable for the least of your number. Not as sexy, I know, but more "possible." Louis  |  IP: Logged Lance C. McFetridge Expert Film Handler Posts: 135 From: Penn Yan, New York Registered: Jul 99 posted 09-19-2007 12:07 PM                     Jason, I would suggest that you look for a flying club. You can become a member and have less expensive access to several types of planes. Next, interview flight instructors and their students to see how they are. Learning to fly in a C150 is a lot less expensive than almost any other plane. Go for your private license not a recreational or sport. You will want to go places and take people with you. Once you get your private license then step up to a c182 or c172 or pipers, learn the basics. If you are willing to study, take lessons regularly, you could complete your ppl in less than 100 hours. Forget the sims....learn the basics in the left seat next to a qualified CFII and learn spins and stalls. Twins are nice, they burn somewhere around 35+gallons an hour, at 4.50/gallon. Annual inspections are much more on a twin, maintenance on twins are more. You might better look for an Arrow or a Mooney for your first, and when someone mentioned insurance...they were right, it is based on owners experience in that particular plane. I have my private, working on my instruments, any questions feel free. lance  |  IP: Logged Monte L Fullmer Film God Posts: 8367 From: Nampa, Idaho, USA Registered: Nov 2004 posted 09-19-2007 01:37 PM                     (lol a little late to post on this one..) I liked Phil's comments on me being not up to date... ..but, didn't carbon arc lamphouses put out a lot better light than any xenon lamphouse made? Sometimes, the old fashioned way still merits its rewards. -Monte  |  IP: Logged Paul Mayer Oh get out of it Melvin, before it pulls you under! Posts: 3836 From: Albuquerque, NM Registered: Feb 2000 posted 09-19-2007 02:03 PM                        Wow, a 414?!? That's a whole lotta airplane even for an experienced pilot/owner! So in addition to a PPL (no recreational certificate will do with this class of aircraft), you and your partners will each need: A multi-engine rating (a misnomer since you'll do most of this on one engine ). Possibly a complex aircraft logbook endorsement (constant-speed prop and retractable landing gear training). An multi-engine instrument rating (an absolute must-have in this kind of airplane). A high-altitude logbook endorsement (pressurization system and oxygen hypoxia training). As Louis points out, this is assuming you can find an aviation underwriter like Avemco that will write a policy for you and your group. Training for advanced aircraft such as this is beyond most flight schools and their CFIs - you're definitely going to do your training for this aircraft at a place like Flight Safety or Alteon. And you'll be required to do that training annually in order to get the best insurance rate, or any insurance at all. This aircraft-specific training will be after you get your PPL, AMEL, and Instrument tickets at a regular flight school. The annual training will be done in a simulator at their facility - figure on about a week every year. The numbers quoted for the airplane look good - about 1/3 to mid-time on the engines. They'll both come up for overhaul at about the same time, assuming they both make it to TBO, which they usually do if they are handled gently. I'd have an inspector do at least an AD (Airworthiness Directive) search and maybe even an annual on this airframe to see that it doesn't have any nasty and expensive surprises coming up - some of those cost more to comply with than the airplane is worth. The asking price seems a little too good to be true to me - I'd like to know why. Which brings up a maintenance fund. You'll need to start building a maintenance fund to be able to afford that pair of overhauls in a couple of years - figure about $30,000 each for those turbocharged fuel-injected Continental TSIO-520 engines. Sock away some dough (like about $20/engine) every hour the airplane flies (including the 500 hours it's already flown on those engines) and you'll have the funds ready when it's time. Same thing for the prop overhauls. And the annual inspection and AD compliance check. And the bi-annual transponder and pitot/static system checks. Oh and you'll probably need at least a shade hangar. One doesn't usually keep an airplane like this just tied down out in the open. A lot of partnerships hire a management company to take care of the business side of aircraft ownership. That and they can lease the aircraft out and bring in some cash when you're not flying it. Just don't count on a leaseback to pay for the airplane - you have to be able to afford it without any leasebacks. If you do a leaseback, add 100-hour inspections to the other required maintenance. It's definitely a big dream and goal you've set for yourself. It can be done - if John Travolta can have a Boeing 707 type rating on his PPL, you can fly a Cessna 414 on yours. All it takes is money. And time, patience, passion, and tenacity. But mostly money.  |  IP: Logged Jason Black Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1723 From: Myrtle Beach, SC, USA Registered: Nov 2000 posted 09-19-2007 05:50 PM                        Paul: Very wise words.. Didn't mean to infer that we were actively looking at the C414 right now, but, ultimately, this is what I'd like to get to, something twin engine, seating about 6 or 7. I'm sure that I'd need to start out on a much more basic single engine setup, and, truthfully, I don't even *know* what the various aircraft types are. I do plan on doing some snoopin at the local FBO and talking the the guys/gals there. I'm sure that they would have to have some info on local flying clubs, lessons, instructors, etc. I have a long way to go.. and a lot to overcome.. but, like all else in my life, with the directive set, I will accomplish the goal!  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 09-19-2007 06:12 PM                     quote: Paul Mayer if John Travolta can have a Boeing 707 type rating on his PPL, you can fly a Cessna 414 on yours. All it takes is money. And time, patience, passion, and tenacity. But mostly money. well... and the ability to dress up as a big fat woman and perform in a musical... can you do that Jason? Also, since you already live in Florida you might want to check out Embry Riddle Aeronautical University if you have any inkling of aviation as a living this is the place to go. Mark  |  IP: Logged Louis Bornwasser Film God Posts: 4441 From: prospect ky usa Registered: Mar 2005 posted 09-19-2007 06:17 PM                        Mark: Jacksonville has ATP Academy; with branches in at least 15 towns in FL. There are others. Louis  |  IP: Logged Joel N. Weber II Expert Film Handler Posts: 115 From: Somerville, MA, USA Registered: Dec 2005 posted 09-19-2007 07:52 PM                     What benefit are you hoping to get out of the second engine? It's a lot of extra cost, and it doubles the probability that you'll experience an engine failure. I've talked to people who've known people who've experienced engine failures in single engine planes, and I can think of two cases where the pilots safely landed on regular runways at airports. A twin might be safer when an engine quits if the pilot does everything right. But you can also find a fair number of accident reports where the pilot didn't do things right, and in some cases the simpler procedures on a single engine plane might have made the pilot less likely to screw up. The minimum safe airspeed on a twin with only one engine running is a significant issue, as is the procedure for shutting down the correct engine correctly. And the bigger twins also often have retractable gear, which also adds to the cost of the insurance.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 09-19-2007 09:28 PM                     Louis, I just brought up Embry Riddle because a friend's son is going there... Its oriented more towards aeronautical engineering but they also teach you how to fly as part of your education. My friend's son already has his twin rating and he's only in his second year. BTW: Even with a twin if you loose an engine you're still going down... might take longer... might not. Mark  |  IP: Logged Jack Ondracek Film God Posts: 2348 From: Port Orchard, WA, USA Registered: Oct 2002 posted 09-19-2007 10:06 PM                        Lots of interesting comments here. I haven't seen anything approximating a school with wrecks out back though. Maybe that's because most all students in our area have learn how to deal with airspace surrounding Seattle-Tacoma International, a couple of military airports and numerous surrounding municipal fields, and a slacker school wouldn't last long. Here's a link to a flight school at the airport next door to us: http://avianflight.com Doug O'Donnell and Doug Hanson can tell you a lot about the various ratings and what to look for in a school where you are. I'd have to look up the requirements for the recreational rating, but it's pretty restrictive, compared to a private certificate. For the private, you need a minimum of 40 hours, including dual, solo, night and cross-country. Our local flight school says the average is more like 60-70 hours. Rental rates around here run between $85 and $120 per hour for single engine, depending on the model and when you rent it. Add $35-$40 per hour for any dual time you use, including some ground time. Ground schools here are generally flat-rated, including class time and materials, but not for flight and instructor time. Then, there are fees for medicals, written (computerized) tests and final check rides with an FAA designated examiner. From what I can tell around here (Washington State), you'd be lucky to get by at around $4,500... probably more, depending on the time you need to be proficient for the practical test. If you own your own plane, hourly flight costs are roughly half what you'd pay to rent someone else's. If you can pull this off, it will be one of the really significant points in your life. Not too many people do this (or necessarily want to). However, I've never known a pilot who lacked enthusiasm for the experience. Good luck! Jack N6505W  |  IP: Logged Tim Reed Better Projection Pays Posts: 5246 From: Northampton, PA Registered: Sep 1999 posted 09-20-2007 05:54 AM                       This is one thing I started in the early 80s, but never finished - due to the high cost. Louis Bornwasser got me hooked on flying. It was always great fun tooling around in his (at the time) 182. Louis also took me on my first flight ever. Always wished I'd gotten my private pilot's license. Today, I can't fly without getting physically ill. Don't know what that's all about, but I'll get flu-like symptoms that last for days...  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 09-20-2007 09:18 AM                     quote: Jack Ondracek If you own your own plane, hourly flight costs are roughly half what you'd pay to rent someone else's. It doesn't really matter if you own a plane or not there is still the hourly cost to operate a plane... at least everyone I've known with a plane still views it as cost per hour to operate.... a wise viewpoint indeed. Engine overhaul is very expensive... ya can't hid that part of owning a plane. quote: Tim Reed Today, I can't fly without getting physically ill. Tim... its all to do with that hair! Mark  |  IP: Logged Jack Ondracek Film God Posts: 2348 From: Port Orchard, WA, USA Registered: Oct 2002 posted 09-20-2007 10:15 AM                        Sort of thought that's what I said. You're right about the maintenance costs though. Ours will be going in for the engine, probably next year. This year, it's new radios.  |  IP: Logged Tim Reed Better Projection Pays Posts: 5246 From: Northampton, PA Registered: Sep 1999 posted 09-20-2007 04:53 PM                       quote: Mark G. its all to do with that hair! You goof! LOL!  |  IP: Logged

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