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Topic: Maybe 4k has a real chance after all

Bill Gabel
Film God

Posts: 3873
From: Technicolor / Postworks NY, USA
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 10-20-2007 11:17 AM

I've had one of those SONY 4K projectors for over a year now.

I hope they told AMC about how to play 3D with it.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 10-20-2007 01:55 PM

quote: Scott Norwood
Have there been any actual 4k releases derived from 4k scans of the camera negative, or are all the 4k units now being used to show upconverted 2k material?

Sony has done several 4K quality productions (both CGI and final digital intermediate). I could have sworn Warner Bros. has done so as well, but can't tell you titles from memory. I just remember seeing blurbs here and there in various articles. However, I think the occasional 4K work has been done more for the benefit of 35mm film print quality than that of digital cinema release.

Although companies like Sony could do so, I haven't heard of virtual print hard discs going out to theaters in 4K form.

Maybe someone else can confirm this, but doesn't the Dolby Digital Cinema server and Doremi DCP-2000 server both have the capability of ingesting a 4K DCI format virtual print and scaling the image down to 2K for projectors like Christie's CP2000?

I agree with Brad's comment that the people running the movie business only seem to care about the money and not about quality. With their business model so front-loaded as to get the movie onto sell through home video release as quickly as possible good quality movie theater presentations have become a casualty of that narrow minded business strategy.

Another random thought: does anyone know what digital projection system Warren Theatres in Wichita, KS have chosen (if any choice has been made yet)? Progress is really coming along on their huge new movie theater complex in Moore, OK. It's likely it will open with digital projectors on all 20 screens. I have a feeling Sony's 4K machine would be a long shot, although something in 4K native resolution would be far better on a 80' wide screen than mere 2K. Christie/AccessIT or Dolby appear much more likely to win the contract.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 10-20-2007 03:38 PM

quote: Brad Miller
Nah Mark, now you just sound like an old coot.

Thats because I am!

quote: Bobby Henderson
Maybe someone else can confirm this, but doesn't the Dolby Digital Cinema server and Doremi DCP-2000 server both have the capability of ingesting a 4K DCI format virtual print and scaling the image down to 2K for projectors like Christie's CP2000?

They have 4K playback capability but not right out of the box. I'm also not sure about the capability of the server scaling the 4K data back down to 2K...

quote: Bobby Henderson
I agree with Brad's comment that the people running the movie business only seem to care about the money and not about quality. With their business model so front-loaded as to get the movie onto sell through home video release as quickly as possible good quality movie theater presentations have become a casualty of that narrow minded business strategy.

I don't know what planet everyone else here is from but the entire world economy has been money driven for hundreds of years now. Quality has always been an option that few... even very few of the wealthy are willing to pay for.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 10-20-2007 04:32 PM

Maybe the "quality" term needs a bit of paraphrasing. These days, "high quality" equates simply to doing a job correctly, not really at the highest possible standard.

Much of the movie theater business has been lapsing from doing a job at satisfactory levels to merely doing at little as one can to barely get by. Any business that lives by that anti-ethic is ultimately doomed.

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Cameron Glendinning
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 845
From: West Ryde, Sydney, NSW Australia
Registered: Dec 2005

posted 10-20-2007 05:05 PM

quote:
Have there been any actual 4k releases derived from 4k scans of the camera negative,

Not many but they exist. In Australia I believe a small art house film "10 canoes" was our first 35mm prints at 4k level. Ironically when released in the UK it was a digital 16/9 pan and scan version was shown?

A friend of mine just tested the new Red camera for a cinematography society. He tells me that its RED RAW output is actually 6k, but this level of output would only be used for scientific purposes.

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 10-20-2007 05:16 PM

quote: Bobby Henderson
lapsing from doing a job at satisfactory levels to merely doing at little as one can to barely get by. Any business that lives by that anti-ethic is ultimately doomed.

Naaaaah...the fast food business has used that business model for 50 years and it just keeps growing! [Big Grin]

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Tristan Lane
Master Film Handler

Posts: 444
From: Nampa, Idaho
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 10-20-2007 08:22 PM

quote: Bobby Henderson
Maybe someone else can confirm this, but doesn't the Dolby Digital Cinema server and Doremi DCP-2000 server both have the capability of ingesting a 4K DCI format virtual print and scaling the image down to 2K for projectors like Christie's CP2000?

In addition to Mark's comments. DCI spec requires that any 4K content be backwards compatible with 2K players, and that all servers are able to play back both 2K and 4K packages. This doesn't mean that 2K servers need to be able to playback 4K at full res, just that they are able to play the 4K package at 2K.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 10-20-2007 11:27 PM

quote: Bobby Henderson
Much of the movie theater business has been lapsing from doing a job at satisfactory levels to merely doing at little as one can to barely get by. Any business that lives by that anti-ethic is ultimately doomed.

Bobby,

All types of buisnesses have been lapsing from satisfactory to barely acceptable all over the place.... This barely acceptable policy seems to have become the defacto standard of today's economy.... was also the norm in manufacturing since the beginning of manufacturing. Buisnesses that want to operate this way are hardly doomed.... buisness is booming in general for just about everyone and the sales index of goods was up last month quite a bit.

Mark

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 10-21-2007 12:54 AM

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Buisnesses that want to operate this way are hardly doomed.... buisness is booming in general for just about everyone and the sales index of goods was up last month quite a bit.

If you're going to defend that profane bullshit then don't ever complain about poor quality product in anything ever again. And be prepared to have Red Communist China move you out of your job. When we want to do business in the vacant, pathetic level of not even trying, we absolutely deserve to be defeated.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 10-21-2007 05:49 AM

quote: Bobby Henderson
When we want to do business in the vacant, pathetic level of not even trying, we absolutely deserve to be defeated.

You think the Chinese aren't that way also... they invented it. Having been around many more centuries than we have. The latest rash of lead tainted toys is a very good example. In manufacturing providing the least product for the most profit possible is the de facto standard. Fix it later not now and slow production is another standard. There are many good examples of this... The big three auto makers are probably the best one with their recalls, airliner manufacturers are another example. The HD-DVD and Blew Ray thing is another... units were sold at first that would barely function... some options on HD-DVD didn't even work correctly until firmware upgrades came along with the fix. D-Cinema is another with its many firmware fixes... I could name a large list of others if you'd like but the school of making the most profit with the least input... even if the product isn't quite 100% yet school of thinking will never change.

Of course there are all levels of quality available in manufactured goods and thats why the better the product the more it costs to buy with optics being a very good example.

Mark

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Richard Hamilton
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1341
From: Evansville, Indiana
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 10-21-2007 11:40 AM

did someone say China?

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 10-21-2007 04:57 PM

Yea Richard... and speaking if China you might want to read what all your buddies are subjected to while working over there in those super modern commie run factories.... American Imports, Chinese Deaths

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Cameron Glendinning
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 845
From: West Ryde, Sydney, NSW Australia
Registered: Dec 2005

posted 10-21-2007 06:52 PM

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
You think the Chinese aren't that way also... they invented it. Having been around many more centuries than we have. The latest rash of lead tainted toys is a very good example. In manufacturing providing the least product for the most profit possible is the de facto standard.

yes but wasnt it both Mattel and Walmart, American businesses that have pressured these factories to produce there products so cheaply that they were not up to a legal Chinese health standard so that they could not actually be sold in China ? Does that mean that Capatalism has pressured Commies to produce dangerious products to flood the world?

What a strange time we live in.

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Bill Enos
Film God

Posts: 2081
From: Richmond, Virginia, USA
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 10-21-2007 07:16 PM

I read it, about what I expected. One of the U.S. importers stated that it was like the U.S. in the '40s. More like the 1890s to mid teens I expect.

What we need to export to China is lawyers and plenty of them. The sooner we can have them sueing each other, their employers,
the government, the medical system, etc. the sooner they will have a safer work environment and the cost of Chinese goods on the world market will rise to the point where they will be competitive with the rest of the world.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 10-21-2007 07:17 PM

quote: Cameron Glendinning
Does that mean that Capatalism has pressured Commies to produce dangerious products to flood the world?

I'm sure that companies like Wal-Mart don't help the situation but over here in the U.S. all known tainted toys have been re-called and as far as I know returned to mainland China. With the tight restrictions we have here the manufacturers over there had to know that this would eventually bite them in the leg sooner than later. Even before Wal-Mart got to be what it is today China had horrible safety/health records for their working population. I can remember a report on 60 Minuites back when I was a kid in HIgh School that showed what the factory workers over there put up with every day... deplorable to say the least.

quote: Cameron Glendinning
to produce there products so cheaply that they were not up to a legal Chinese health standard

Thats the problem... there is no equivelent Chinese OSHA... if the Chinese had a workers health/safety standard to begin with this would have never happened in the first place.

Mark

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