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Topic: Maybe 4k has a real chance after all

Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 11-03-2007 11:51 AM

People can talking about "scaling" or whatever.

The fact remains 2K d-cinema format is 2048 X 1080 pixels.

HD-DVD and Blu-Ray deliver 1920 X 1080 pixels.

There is NOT a great deal of difference there. Talk all you want about screen size, type of projector or whatever. That pixel count is a very critical issue that cannot be overlooked.

2K d-cinema looks decent on small to medium sized screens...for the most part. The 2K format can really fall apart when the movie has to display graphics on screen, like film titles and graphical effects in the movie. Graphical context can absolutely expose the hell out of any limitations of resolution. End credits often look pretty soft, and can still expose the pixel grid. The opening title for Michael Clayton looked terrible because a font with very small intricate serifs was chosen and slowly zoomed forward in the frame. The pixel dance that happened looked really really bad. There is no argument that opening title would have looked better in a pure 35mm treatment or in 4K. Perhaps Warner Bros. could have done some careful blur work and other tweaks on that lettering to make it work better in that coarse grid. They'll certainly need to do something before it goes to home video.

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Chris Slycord
Film God

Posts: 2986
From: 청주시, 경북도, South Korea
Registered: Mar 2007

posted 11-03-2007 11:56 AM

quote: Tristan Lane
I invite you, when you have a chance to play an HD-DVD or Blu-ray on a big screen, using a quality scaler, on a 2K project. You will see (as I have) how much of a difference there is between the user-grade stuff and what is presented on a day-to-day basis in d-cinema. The new HD-DVD/blu-ray stuff may look good at home on a 100+ inch screen, but will pale in comparison to JPEG2000 when shown on a 40 of 50 foot screen.

That's a nonsequitur. He wasn't saying "HD-DVD/Blur-Ray are just as good as D-Cinema." He was saying that the average person is gonna go "What's the big deal; I can wait and see it at home for cheaper and it'll still have really good picture."

Like if people are ok with buying shitty mp3s why would they care about getting something that's a downgrade from D-Cinema?

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 11-03-2007 01:26 PM

quote: Bobby Henderson
2K d-cinema looks decent on small to medium sized screens...for the most part. The 2K format can really fall apart when the movie has to display graphics on screen, like film titles and graphical effects in the movie.

Actually there is a big difference and it has to do with the encoding and decoding end of thigns. Neither format uses the entire 2048 width of the chips but close to it. The big differences are that these are inherently perfect chiops and the optical blocks and optics used are far-far more complex than any consumer stuff.

Also, at least when using the Dolby Server the artifact problems during graphics and titles are all but gone now. You must be seeing another brand of server in action with these
problems or a server still running an older software version. Also, 2K d-Cinema when done right looks fantastic even on a 70 foot wide screen.

quote: Tristan Lane
I invite you, when you have a chance to play an HD-DVD or Blu-ray on a big screen, using a quality scaler, on a 2K project. You will see (as I have) how much of a difference there is between the user-grade stuff and what is presented on a day-to-day basis in d-cinema. The new HD-DVD/blu-ray stuff may look good at home on a 100+ inch screen, but will pale in comparison to JPEG2000 when shown on a 40 of 50 foot screen.

We recently watched "Batman Begins" recently in HD-DVD, scaled to 2K with a Cine-IPM2K scaler and it really wasn't that pleasing or impressive.

The two home grade formats just can't compete with JPG2K

I agree 100%! The difference is startling and quite remarkable. Again its all in the encode/decode process and in the overall quality of the equipment being used. Just look at the difference between pre-show and D-Cinema playback at a location that uses the D-Cinema projector for both.... the difference there is amazing to say the least...

Mark

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Peter Castle
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 220
From: Wollongong University, NSW ,Australia
Registered: Oct 2003

posted 11-04-2007 07:24 AM

In a couple of posts recently, there's been mention of a HD-DVD of Batman Begins being shown on a DCI projector "scaled to 2K". Why? It's already there. Any scaling that is performed is introducing problems. I've seen BluRay on a 40' screen (with a 10,000 lumen fullHD DLP projector - just not DCI) and it looked pretty good. (And yes, I have seen both 2K and 4K DCI presentations.) Also, comparing pre-show material which (at least here in Australia) is likely to be at best 720p, and probably is 576p, against DCI is of course going to show DCI as streets ahead.

But that is not the point. The point is that it has to be way better. Otherwise HD-DVD and BluRay will look better on a home cinema setup - and that's what a commercial cinema has to compare to.

That to me means 4K.

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Cameron Glendinning
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 845
From: West Ryde, Sydney, NSW Australia
Registered: Dec 2005

posted 11-04-2007 04:11 PM

Firstly I should point out that in the photo in my last post, thats not my backyard! Its my screen at a good friends place, the idea of a dive in was something I just had to try!

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Just look at the difference between pre-show and D-Cinema playback at a location that uses the D-Cinema projector for both.... the difference there is amazing to say the least...

Is it like the difference between preshow and 35mm in a cinema where film is done right?

Mark, or are you saying that 2k compares with the 70mm prints of the 60's? Or are film makers today too dependant of some male actors use of eyeliner and cheap props to ever dream of moving to a higher resolution format again?

I see many giant screen cinemas with lots of seats way to close for the screen, wouldn't a higher resolution make these seats usable?

Codecs are another interesting point, Both Jpeg 2000 and home 1080p variations will be constantly improving from now on.

As film production work flow slowly moves to say 4k to start then 6k, as computers continue to go faster and gigabytes get cheaper ect. Are the cinemas that stuck with 35mm (done right obviously) are going to pass on more of this quality than the early converters to 2k? I have no doubt 2k will look much better as it evolves and higher quality masters evolve.

Let me say that those cheap companies that cannot run film (done right) anymore, 2k is really their only option for long term survival. But those markets that have not been affected by print damage/ piss poor projection could be better off by waiting for even better technology to develop.

Lets face the possibility that movie releases will continue to get shorter (ie less than 250 screenings) and repetory cinemas probably wont make a comback so many of the obvious advantages of d cinema are no longer relevent. I remember 20 years ago running some prints for 2 years in first release with no noticable wear. Unfortunatly seeing the classics in a rep cinema was usually a print damage type experience.

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Tristan Lane
Master Film Handler

Posts: 444
From: Nampa, Idaho
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 11-05-2007 08:53 PM

quote: Peter Castle
I've seen BluRay on a 40' screen (with a 10,000 lumen fullHD DLP projector - just not DCI) and it looked pretty good. (And yes, I have seen both 2K and 4K DCI presentations.)

Peter,
A 10,000 lumen projector would be hard pressed to properly light a 40' screen, and in order to make an accurate comparison of the two media formats, a proper D-cinema projector should be used for both, in the same room, one right after the other.

When and where did you see these 2K/4K presentations? What were the movies? Were they MPEG or JPEG?

quote: Peter Castle
In a couple of posts recently, there's been mention of a HD-DVD of Batman Begins being shown on a DCI projector "scaled to 2K". Why? It's already there. Any scaling that is performed is introducing problems.

Why scale? Because it is NOT already there. It's close, but not quite there. The scaler was also used to test the difference between the performance of the analog video quality as well as the native digital output of the player.

To be clear, I also bypassed the scaler and passed the signal through, with no modification........my opinion was unchanged. The scaler used has never introduced any unwanted artifacts or picture anomalies, and works quite well.

DCI is a set guidelines and standards.........not the format or projector, It seems to be confused lately, with people referring to the projector as a "dci projector" or a "dci movie"

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 11-05-2007 10:09 PM

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Actually there is a big difference and it has to do with the encoding and decoding end of thigns. Neither format uses the entire 2048 width of the chips but close to it. The big differences are that these are inherently perfect chiops and the optical blocks and optics used are far-far more complex than any consumer stuff.

A limited pixel count is still a tough thing to deal with. Type and graphics don't work as well in resolution-challenged settings as photographic content. I certainly know this from my own line of work.

You can get away with photographic imagery looking a little soft or noisy, grainy and even a bit jaggy with pixels. Type just tends to fall apart when it isn't given enough pixels in resolution. I really see this big time in the rapidly growing LED electronic sign and billboard market where native resolution is especially limited. I remember the botched end titles on the IMAX print of Fantasia 2000 where the pixel grid was very easy to see.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 11-05-2007 10:10 PM

Double post, please delete.

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