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This topic comprises 5 pages: 1 2 3 4 5
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Author
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Topic: Cinemark tries to do a nice thing, gets angry response
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Leo Enticknap
Film God
Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 01-09-2013 12:09 PM
quote: Manny Knowles
I recall a few airline crashes where the companies arranged to have psychological counseling available for the passengers and crew that survived, as well as the families of those who did not.
To be fair, fatal airliner crashes happen regularly (even in a good year for air safety, there are two or three). Therefore, it makes sense for the aviation industry to have a response infrastructure in place, including the provision of counselling, for when they do. Even from the perspective of business sense, not having that side room at the airport to usher the waiting relatives into, and not having properly trained people to break the news would make an already bad PR situation ten times worse. If you were the CEO of an airline, would you want relatives in the arrivals hall finding out about a crash on their smartphones and then being told at the enquiries desk to go away? By the same token, every police station will have someone on duty who has been trained to go to someone's house and break the news that their husband/wife/son/daughter has been killed in a car crash beacuse, sadly, the statistics tell us that their services will be needed several times a month.
But in the cinema industry? I stand to be corrected, but AFAIK and if you discount WWII bombings, there has not been an incident that caused mass fatalities in a British cinema since the Glen Cinema disaster in 1929, and would guess that the time gap is pretty similar for the US. I think there's a limit to how far you can hold Cinemark responsible for what may have been a less than ideal handling of this situation, for the simple reason that it's never happened in this industry before.
quote: Brad Miller
There are a lot of people who will disagree with me on this, but the only way to have a chance at stopping these sort of shootings are in fact licensed people (as in the public) packing (concealed or not, but preferably concealed). Just look at the TSA.
I can certainly see where you're coming from. Theatres are supposed to be welcoming places where customers go for a leisure activity, and so imposing a TSA-like experience on them would drive huge numbers of customers away. We put up with the TSA when we fly because we have no choice if we want to get to our destination. We do have a choice as to where we spend our leisure time, and the competition to theatres from home media is stronger than it's ever been. So x-raying or searching customers at theatres in order to prevent another gun massacre is not a realistic option.
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Edward Havens
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 614
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: Mar 2008
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posted 01-09-2013 01:55 PM
quote: Brad Miller
There are a lot of people who will disagree with me on this, but the only way to have a chance at stopping these sort of shootings are in fact licensed people (as in the public) packing (concealed or not, but preferably concealed).
Brad, let's go back to the Century Aurora 16 on the night of July 19, 2012, as three hundred or so people sit in a darkened Theatre 9 watching "The Dark Knight Rises." James Holmes goes out of an exit door adjacent to the screen at the front of the auditorium, propping the door open just so slightly, so he can re-enter the room with his arsenal. He opened the door, throws in a smoke bomb and starts shooting the place up, all while the theatre is still dark and the movie is still playing.
And since this is Colorado, there are ten people packing heat (as a former resident of Longmont CO, I'd say this ratio is even a bit low, but let's leave it for argument's sake) as they watch the movie. And let's say you are one of the ten people packing as you watch the film. All of a sudden, there's a bunch of smoke in the room and something that sounds like gunfire. What do you do? Do you just whip out your pistol and start shooting?
Hell no.
You don't know what's going on yet. You can't see through the smoke, so you don't know where the shooter is. You don't have a clear target. You can't tell how many people are between you and the shooter. And by the time the smoke dissipates, you can clearly see the shooter and you can take a clear shot, who knows how many people have been shot.
I like to use the following story when people suggest the answer to lowering gun violence is to have more people packing...
Two years ago yesterday, Arizona congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords and eighteen other people were shot by Jared Lee Loughner outside a Safeway grocery store in a suburb of Tucson AZ. There were armed security guards on duty at the La Toscana Village mall, where the Safeway is located, and one of those armed guards was near Ms. Gifford when Mr. Loughner started shooting. Except the armed guard never fired a shot.
Why?
There was too much confusion and too many scared people running around not knowing what was going on, and because of everything, he never had a clear shot of Mr. Loughner. Others subdued the gunman, including Joseph Zamudio, who is a CCW holder and had a gun on him at the time of the incident, but chose to physically restrain Loughner instead of draw his weapon and risk injuring more innocent people.
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Brad Miller
Administrator
Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99
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posted 01-09-2013 03:32 PM
quote: Bobby Henderson
While I'm generally in favor of at least one exit door at the back row, such a thing might open a can of worms in bureaucratic expense, like complying with ADA. The new theater might have to add an elevator or two into the design even if people are having to climb stairs to get to the top, back row of the stadium seated area. ADA might demand an area or two up top be cleared for wheelchair positions in addition to other areas below being reserved for them. Overall, such a thing will complicate the projection booth design.
Ummm, what projection booth? Theaters these days are trying to eliminate them and put the projector in the auditorium to save a buck, often making noise for the audience, making servicing ridiculously difficult or put the service technician physically at risk.
quote: Bobby Henderson
Tactically speaking, it's not really much better for would-be shooting victims to have a back door up at the top of the seating area as a means of escape. The stampede of people trying to get to one or two exit doors up top would create a juicy target for the shooter. All he has to do is concentrate his fire at those exits and watch the bodies clog the escape route.
Your logic is flawed. I understand the desire for a large target, but the closer a target is, the easier it is to hit it. Having everyone run to within 5 feet of you as they make their escape will damn near guarantee that you will kill every last one of them (unless you run out of ammunition). Having everyone pile out a rear door 100 feet away from you is a much more difficult target to kill all of them. MANY more people would survive. Remember, the killer isn't trying to put a bullet into "the audience as a whole", he is trying to put a bullet into "every person in the audience".
quote: Mike Blakesley
I think maybe I would have been inclined to just dive down between the seats rather than run toward the guy, but who knows?
Hitting the floor between rows of seats and playing dead is ABSOLUTELY the smartest thing to do here if you are defenseless to try and fight back. Even someone who may have a concealed firearm should do this as well if they don't feel they have a solid shot. Play dead briefly until the smoke clears enough or the guy walks past to go get more people in the upper rows then take a clean shot.
quote:
etc, etc, etc......Do you just whip out your pistol and start shooting?
Hell no.
You don't know what's going on yet. You can't see through the smoke, so you don't know where the shooter is. You don't have a clear target. You can't tell how many people are between you and the shooter. And by the time the smoke dissipates, you can clearly see the shooter and you can take a clear shot, who knows how many people have been shot.
That is an unfortunate fact of the situation. In this case I would do exactly what I wrote above, drop to the floor and play dead (but quickly get my gun out, disable the safety and "play dead" in a position that kept the gun concealed but would let me jump up quickly if the opportunity arose.)
Before someone says something stupid, in this scenario no I'm not "letting people die" while being a "coward". If there is smoke everywhere and no visibility, I am protecting myself so that I can hopefully delay just long enough TO get a shot. At that point, assuming the opportunity arose, I could defend myself and help protect the other people.
The Aurora shooting scenario isn't a good analogy to the grocery store example, but I can understand the point you are trying to make. Just because there were 10 people packing doesn't mean any of them got an opportunity.
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Leo Enticknap
Film God
Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 01-10-2013 12:34 AM
quote: Manny Knowles
Leo -- I'm not saying they should have that kind of infrastructure in place. But in the time they took to make the decision to mail out free passes, they could have arranged for counseling. There are psychologists available who specialize in grief counseling. I would argue that even a single group session would have been more appropriate than the free passes. Even if family members decided not to avail themselves, they could hardly come down so hard on Cinemark for trying to do the right thing.
I think we're basically agreed - they made the wrong call on this. My point is that, thankfully, neither they nor any other business in this industry has had any previous experience of dealing with a situation like this. The media coverage of this shooting did not mention any previous act of mass murder in a movie theatre, and after digging around on Google for 15 minutes or so (admittedly, not exactly painstaking research), I can only find evidence of one, in Iran in 1978.
So, if a major airline offered the relatives of crash victims 2,000 bonus frequent flyer miles and an upgrade to economy comfort on their next trip, I would absolutely want its CEO hung out to dry, because there would be absolutely no excuse for not knowing better: there have been hundreds of plane crashes in the history of civil aviation, and so the industry has almost a century of experience in dealing with the aftermath of them. I hope the lessons of this theatre shooting will be learnt, but, obviously, that the knowledge won't have to be used.
quote: Manny Knowles
I also think that an appropriate course of action would be to analyze the event, identify security loopholes, come up with corrective measures, and then talk to the families about what is being done in an effort to reassure them (as much as possible) that this kind of thing won't happen again.
As Brad said, that's not reassurance that can truthfully be given; all they can say is that the common sense things have been done to reduce the risk of it happening again. The bottom line is that a psychopath like that can strike anywhere, and if he hadn't been able to get into a theatre, he would probably have started shooting people in a supermarket, railway station or wherever.
Saying that there is cause for optimism is not the right way of putting it, but I think there is cause for hope. This incident was not (as far as I'm aware, at any rate) followed by reactionary media commentators trying to start a bandwagon along the lines that theatres are dangerous places, blah blah blah. Again, making the comparison with aviation, compare that with the hysteria that's going on about the Boeing 787 at the moment: the press and TV are on a 'this plane is a flying deathtrap' roll, even though independent industry experts are pretty much unanimously agreed that it isn't, and that in reality we're dealing with the teething issues that any fundamentally new plane is going to hit. Movie theatres have a longstanding reputation for being very safe places, and that reputation has largely, and deservedly, survived this shooting. Of course I agree that changes to the design of stadium auditoria to provide more escape routes would be a good idea, but my gut feeling is that reducing the risk of something like this happening again is more in the power of the medical and law enforcement professions than that of the film industry.
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 01-10-2013 12:12 PM
quote: Brad Miller
Ummm, what projection booth? Theaters these days are trying to eliminate them and put the projector in the auditorium to save a buck, often making noise for the audience, making servicing ridiculously difficult or put the service technician physically at risk.
My first reaction of seeing a digital projector hanging from the ceiling of a theater auditorium was "WTF." That was followed by "am I in a movie theater or a Buffalo Wild Wings location?" If someone designing a theater wanted to incorporate both a proper projection booth and 2nd floor customer passageway into the design he would have some interesting challenges.
quote: Brad Miller
Your logic is flawed. I understand the desire for a large target, but the closer a target is, the easier it is to hit it. Having everyone run to within 5 feet of you as they make their escape will damn near guarantee that you will kill every last one of them (unless you run out of ammunition). Having everyone pile out a rear door 100 feet away from you is a much more difficult target to kill all of them. MANY more people would survive. Remember, the killer isn't trying to put a bullet into "the audience as a whole", he is trying to put a bullet into "every person in the audience".
My logic isn't flawed at all when you consider the actual shooting distances and how people are forced to move through a movie theater auditorium.
All but the largest of movie theater auditoriums are relatively small. Distances of 100 feet? Anyone proficient with a mere handgun can hit targets the size of a person at 100 feet. That's just 33 yards. Rifles are far more accurate (and powerful) than handguns. Hitting targets 100 feet away with lethal accuracy isn't difficult to do with a rifle. Let's not forget the shooter doesn't have to do all his firing from the exit door by the screen. He can run to other positions in the auditorium.
It is easier to hit a target at closer distances. However, if everyone was determined to run down the stairs toward the shooter the crowd would at least have some outside chance of reaching and overwhelming the shooter. The shooter would be in trouble if he had to re-load. The survivors would jam his dry rifle up his ass.
If the crowd is running up the stairs toward an exit up top they'll be exposing their backs to the shooter and jamming together to get through that door. All he has to do is camp at the bottom of the stairs and concentrate his fire towards the door. He'll have no problem hitting targets. If everyone is running away from the shooter he'll have no problem at all swapping magazines to re-load. If the shooter likes, he can just start walking up the stairs finishing off people that were only wounded.
If a heavily armed shooter manages to get into a packed movie theater auditorium then a bunch of the people in the auditorium are screwed. It doesn't matter where the exits are located. The audience is mostly sitting ducks. The first instinct some people will have is to duck and hide behind the seats of the row in front of them. That's not going to make it easy for others to run to the stairs or aisles that lead to the exits. They'll be stepping all over other people trying to do so. Anyone trying to climb over seats toward any exit will expose themselves to the shooter. Some people will make a break for it and bail over the side of the stair well and drop however many feet it is the exit aisle below. The choice between a broken ankle versus getting shot at close range is pretty simple. The sheer panic would create a traffic jam at any exit. The shooter can concentrate his gun fire at those points or he can walk up the stairs, row by row, spraying bullets at the people still ducking for cover.
In a perfect world some of the audience members in that Colorado theater would have had concealed carry handguns (and actually know how to use them). If a would-be mass shooter is suddenly taking return fire from his intended victims it would be a game changer. The shooter would probably still manage to kill a few people, but not nearly as many as he would being able to fire into the crowd with impunity. The best defense is making sure a nut job like that doesn't get into the theater in the first place, which is no problem in a perfect world.
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Mike Blakesley
Film God
Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 01-18-2013 07:10 PM
Here is a newspaper article about the reopening of the Aurora cinema. It's now called the Century Aurora and the auditoriums have been designated with letters instead of numbers. The article is from DenverPost.com, but all I could find were pictures. I'll look more later when I have time and post a link then, unless someone beats me to it.
Century Aurora theater reopens with ceremony, showing of "The Hobbit"
POSTED: 01/17/2013 05:05:47 PM MST
UPDATED: 01/18/2013 09:05:16 AM MST
By Kurtis Lee
The Denver Post
Seated toward the front of Auditorium I, Pierce O'Farrill pointed to the walkway a few feet in front of him. "That's around where a SWAT team guy found me and then dragged me to safety," he said.
It had been almost six months earlier to the day, and O'Farrill returned to the renovated movie theater where he was shot three times in a mass shooting.
"This is weird, man," said O'Farrill, his eyes glancing around. "I'm glad to be here, and, obviously, I'm glad to be alive."
Hundreds attended a night of remembrance Thursday as the Century Aurora reopened its doors. The smells of fresh popcorn and the smiles of theater staff offering up soda and boxes of candy greeted those looking to heal.
Since the July 20 mass shooting where 12 were killed and 70 were injured at a midnight premiere of "The Dark Knight Rises," the complex had sat vacant.
Many who entered Thursday were there, or had family present, that fateful night.
"This isn't only the place we lost Alex," said Tom Sullivan, whose son was killed in the mass shooting. "This is the place we also live. We love to come to the movies."
In the days leading up to the night of remembrance, officials with the city of Aurora said they distributed 2,000 tickets to victims, first responders, volunteers and employees from several metro-area hospitals.
Aurora Mayor Steve Hogan called the evening one that showed the resilience of a community forever changed after the massacre.
"Today, we take another step forward," Hogan told a theater packed with families, police and local politicians. "We must put aside our differences for a greater good and avoid the use of violence to solve problems."
Hogan said the city of Aurora had received "an outpouring of support literally from around the world."
"Now it is time to show the world who we are," he said. "Aurora is strong. Aurora is caring. We will move forward with hope and confidence of better days to come."
Gov. John Hickenlooper, who followed Hogan in delivering remarks at the 40-minute ceremony — which was followed by a showing of "The Hobbit" — acknowledged that not everyone will heal the same in a community forever scarred by the tragedy.
"Some wanted the theater reopened; some didn't," Hickenlooper said. "Certainly there's no right or wrong way of healing. ... For many here tonight, though, this is a part of healing."
Since the event was announced, several families of victims said they would boycott the reopening ceremony, calling it a "publicity ploy" by Cinemark — the theater's owner — to divert public scrutiny. They say that in the wake of the tragedy, Cinemark has never reached out to them and personally
offered condolences.
An August survey conducted by the city of Aurora found that a large majority of residents wanted the theater to reopen. In an open-letter response, Cinemark said it would comply and vowed to remodel the structure.
Tom Jenkins, who works in the nearby mall, said Thursday he wanted the theater bulldozed.
"I find it disrespectful" for the theater to reopen, he said. "In my view, it's like building a playground on a cemetery."
But for some, the night was important to the healing process.
"If it doesn't reopen, he (the gunman) wins. Plain and simple," Alex Milano, 19, who was in Theater 8 the night of the shooting, said before the memorial event.
Meanwhile, outside the multiplex, Eugene Hahn, 20, who was sitting in the second row when a hail of bullets rattled the theater, striking him in the hip and knee, said he wanted to return so he could see for himself how things had been renovated.
He said he and his girlfriend would stay for the screening of "The Hobbit" and likely would return for more movies.
"You could say that lightning doesn't strike twice," he said. "It may, or it may not. But you can get shot anywhere."
In the moments after the brief ceremony, Sullivan walked the aisles of the theater and thanked many of the police who arrived at the theater that night.
"It's been tranquil," Sullivan said after the short ceremony. "Being here brings comfort to me. And hopefully it brings some to others who attended."
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