16mm Fumeo HL2000

[Rob Clarke Tucker]

Has anyone had issues in using 16mm Fumeo HL2000 or 3000 projectors with tape splices ? I appear to be loosing the loop at the top sprocket. But having a cement splices i don't have this problem. Is there a way of adjusting the claw. Or going forward should I just check each tape splice and remove them for cement splices instead ?

I would be interested to know if anyone else has a similar problem.

[Randy Stankey]

When film skips off a sprocket, for any reason, the first thing to check is your pad roller spacing.

If the spacing is wrong it can cause film to skip a sprocket as a splice goes through. Tape splices are usually thicker than cement splices. When they go past a sprocket, they can push the pad roller open by just enough to let the film slip out of line and jump the sprocket.

Common practice is to put two pieces of scrap film on the sprocket then adjust the pad roller until it just makes contact. That will leave just enough space for the splice to go through without popping the pad rollers.

While you're at it, it wouldn't hurt to do a little CLA on your sprockets and pad rollers, too.
(CLA = "Clean, Lube and Adjust.")

[Rob Clarke Tucker]

Thanks Randy,

Unfortunately I don’t have any pad rollers to adjust i’m afraid as per the pictures But what you say about cement vs tape is right.

So unfortunately for me I will need to replace every tape splice for a cement one.

[Randy Stankey]

Those two, Mickey Mouse ears-looking things are your pad rollers. They guide the film and keep it from skipping off the sprocket.

The pad rollers in your pictures look okay but I think the best of their days are behind them. The rest of the projector (that's visible in the picture) looks decent.

You might just be able to get away with a CLA.

[Rob Clarke Tucker]

Thanks Randy

i may end up getting new pad rollers if that’s the case and probably a new sprocket for reliability..

[Randy Stankey]

Never hurts to stock up on parts when you can!

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

What both you guys missed here is there has to be a clearance adjustment for the pad roller to sprocket. All projectors have that... Simplex's, DP-70's, Eiki's and Fumeo's. I can guarantee you tape splices existed when that projector was designed, so those should be ZERO problem if they are applied correctly using a perfectly set up splicer that perforates the holes properly. Ciro are notorious for doing a poor job at perforating the sprocket holes. I have a feeling there is an eccentric in behind that nut to be able to adjust the pad roller clearance. If you do any CLA on those rollers use a light synthetic oil on the shafts so that you don't have to constantly clean off dried up oil and re-lube them.

[Ryan Gallagher]

From the photos there also appear to be some nicks in the flanges of the plastic pad rollers. Any nicks, flat spots, or abrasions in pad rollers mean it is time to replace them, even if they still pass film (for the sake of not adding damage to prints).

But I suspect spacing too to start.

[Randy Stankey]

Yes, I did say that, when film skips a sprocket, the first thing to check is the pad roller spacing. (Clearance.)

I can't tell for sure but it looks like the rollers have Oilite bushings. A drop of oil on them, every once in a while, probably wouldn't be a bad idea. If Mark says that synthetic is best, I'd go with that.

And, by "drop of oil," I mean a single drop, best applied with a needle dropper if you can get one. Otherwise, use a toothpick or something to dab a drop of oil on the shaft.

A little goes a long way!

[Phillip Grace]

I've a couple of observations to make. Given that the top loop is pulling out the problem is likely to arise at the feed sprocket, rather than the gate.

1/ As far as I know there is no adjustment for the pad rollers on a Fumeo 16mm machine, and the film wrap around the sprockets is maintained by the feed and take-up spool tension alone. With that in mind, a slight increase of the feed spool tension might help to keep the sprocket teeth in positive contact with the perforations.

2/ I would also check the perforation pitch across the troublesome tape splices. Some 16mm (and 35mm) tape splicers provide a pitch adjustment to compensate for shrunken film, but quite often that adjustment is used to create an overlap splice, to save blooping the soundtrack at the splice. That has the effect of shortening the perforation pitch at the splice. Apart from guaranteeing that the join will jump on screen the shortened spacing may be enough to upset the passage of the film around the sprocket. Given that there is so little positive control of the film in a 16mm Fumeo that might be enough to cause the upper loop to pull out. If the machine is coping with normal film, and cement joins with the usual overlap it is difficult to see why a properly made tape splice should cause any problems.

(A tape splice should be a perfect butt join with no gap or overlap. It should also be as flexible as the rest of the film).

C. L. (along with A. if that is possible in this case) will help because it will help remove any fluctuations in film motion that might be caused by the pad rollers.

[Randy Stankey]

I'm with you on the opinion that the problem lies with the top sprocket and/or its pad rollers. Even though you say the rollers aren't adjustable, I can't believe that there isn't something even if it's an eccentric shaft or a moveable bracket where you have to loosen a screw or bolt then side things around before retightening. Yes, 35mm machines have adjustable pad rollers that only need a screwdriver to fix. I can see what your talking about with the wraparound feed sprocket. Infinitely adjustable pad rollers wouldn't be necessary in an arrangement like that. The bottom line is that something is out of whack and there's got to be some way to massage it back into place.

Film tension certainly could have something to do with it. Tape splices being more flexible than cement splices could also have something to do with it. Mismatched (shrunken) sprocket hole pitch certainly could be a factor, as well.

Another thought: Are you sure that your tape splices have completely punched-out sprocket holes? Whether you use pre-perforated tape or solid tape, the sprocket holes need to be perfectly clean. If there are bits of tape in the sprocket holes it could make the film skip the sprocket. I've done that... either my splicer wasn't working right and didn't punch the holes right or, on one occasion, only pressed the splicer down hard enough to cut the tape but not punch the holes.

Strangely, the opposite has happened to me, too! One time I was in a hurry and didn't have my splicer at hand so I just grabbed a piece of masking tape to make a "temporary" splice until I could finish the job right. Well, wouldn't you know it! I got distracted and forgot to finish the job! I built the movie up with just a piece of tape holding the trailers onto the feature and ran it.

Amazingly, the film ran perfectly! It even stayed in frame! I didn't even remember that it happened until I went to break the movie down at the end of the night and found the two ends of the film just lapped together with an inch-long piece of tape holding them together.

Go figure!

[Emiel de Jong]

What Phillip said: splices should be perfect with these Fumeo machines. Those are not pad rollers which force the film to stay on the sprocket teeth, they are just rollers, and not adjustable... When I first saw such a machine up close, in the booth of an army base theatre, I was amazed that this design apparently worked reasonably well.

[Ryan Gallagher]

We can’t see the sprocket side flanges of those rollers, could also be just a nick somewhere that more easily catches the width of a tape splice, but cement splices being the same width as film pass without issue? The other flange certainly has a couple nicks.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

Thanks Randy,

Unfortunately I don’t have any pad rollers to adjust i’m afraid as per the pictures But what you say about cement vs tape is right.

So unfortunately for me I will need to replace every tape splice for a cement one.

At this point, after seeing all this, I'd be looking for another projector. This one may end up damaging some valuable film. Certainly one of the poorest thought out pad roller designs I've ever seen!! Well, it's not really a pad roller at all. It's just a couple of fixed rollers. Remember Estar stock is thinner than acetate, and if you repeatedly loose the top loop, you will most likely end up damaging the pull down mechanism itself. Hence, the unit is really just good as a door stop.

[Rob Clarke Tucker]

Thanks guys for all your very informative input on this as to be quite honest with you i have been tearing my hair out over this. As all the projectors i have used in the past being portable or pedestal. I have never had a problem like this, i also once had a Fumeo X900 which was slightly older model being from 1973 which i didn't have this problem

I have changed both the rollers and sprocket and still i am having the same problem even after adjusting the tension on the feed arm. Which i did do before hand which did not make any difference what so ever.

If anyone knows of a reliable projector or can give me some recommendations on a replacement i can use, please drop me a line. As i have decided to give up the ghost on this considering some of the prints i have are valuable and irreplaceable.

I would also consider a part exchange if anyone knows someone who is willing to part exchange ??

The other alternative is just to buy a new projector but once again would these be reliable ?