Best Pro 16mm capable Projectors?

[Ryan Gallagher]

A projectionist friend has just started the expensive hobby of collecting 16mm prints. He only has a classroom style projector now.

But if I wanted to torture him with eBay listings for the best booth machines, what makes and models are the most reputable/quality.

16mm capacity in our booth would be fun, but don’t see anyone springing for such an “upgrade”. Maybe there are travel-able alternatives that work in a special event capacity?

[Leo Enticknap]

My vote would go for the Kinoton FP-38E, with the Eastman 25 as a close runner up, and the FP-16 or 18 in the number three spot.

I got to use an FP-38E in 16mm configuration at the Egyptian for a few years. Although it isn't for a beginner (threading is fiddly and demands attention), the detail and picture stability almost makes 16mm look like 35mm in most cases, and for a really nice print, actually does so. Shrunken and vinegary prints that would risk derailing and mangling in a mechanical Maltese cross intermittent projector, and absolutely would in a claw-in-the-gate classroom projector, may look a bit wobbly, but will pass through an FP-38E unscathed. If they are to be used to show silent movies, the near zero flicker at lower frame rates is an added bonus.

The problem is that not many were built, and the survivors tend to be zealously hung on to by their owners. It's very rare for one to become available on the used equipment market, and hellish expensive if it does.

For xenon-lit claw-in-the-gate models, I would rate 1970s and '80s Eiki and Fumeo models above Elmos and Hell and Bowells, but anything claw-in-the-gate is going to be risky with decades old acetate prints.

[Terry Monohan]

I have 4 of the Kodak Pageant 250S 16mm projectors. They use a bright small 200 watt tung bulb and are very easy on film. Is your friiend going to use his new 16mm projector for the home or cinema use? There is a lot of 16mm junk on E Bay. Have him pay a little exrtra to find a restored projector that has been gone thru. Mailing costs can be expensive as they are very heavy. They must be packed good.

The hardest part for me is finding a good enlargement lens. All the Kodak Pageants came with a standard 2 inch lens. These were great in a large school or auditorium where you could set the projector way back and get a large image. For home use even on a big screen a 2 inch lens will give a tiny sharp picture, Kodak did offer some different size lens . I am lucky to have found a 1 1/2 inch lens that helps a little and a Buhl zoom lens that fits the Pageants. Iam still looking for a 1 inch or 1/2 lens. I have asked all the still left 16mm dealers and they have nothing to report. A guy in SF CA at one time made custom lens mounts for all 16mm projectors. Sadly he left on the trip to the movie theatre in the sky a few yers ago

It can be a very expensive nitch hobby. You can find bargins on E Bay of old 16mm movies ,shorts and TV shows but many are in very sad shape. Most color films are now pink. Many smell of vinegar and are falling apart. Many are full of splices, scratched up or bad dupes from a master 16mm print.

I have some great old TV shows plus musical or comedy shorts in my film collection that are in mint condition mostly B&W with original commercials in place. My biggest fun project is to buy old movie trailers/previews and all the great intermission refreshment ads both in color and B&W. I splice them all together on a 1 hour 200O ft reel. They are fun to watch at a party showing. I may put them on a DVD some day and sell on E BAY. Most of the ones sold now are just copied junk with the same old faded prints.

It's hard to find people these days in the Santa Cruz or San Francisco area that collect 16mm or likes to come over for a movie night party. Many people that I have run into at film festivals or regular movie theatres are not interested in coming over and watch a old TV show or movie on a big home 16mm screen. They have told me why bother ,they can see the same on many of the old TV streaming services.

I hope your friend can find the right 16mm projector as there are about 10 different companies that made them, most stopped in the mid 1970's.The parts are very hard to find now and It is impossible to find a person that knows how to repair them, good luck.

Hoping someone here on the Film Group will have or know of someone that has a 1 inch lens or 1/2 inch lens for my Kodak Pageant 250S. I have bought a few but they have been for a early 16mm projectors from the 40's Kodak not a Pageant and are very small, wont't fit the newer Kodak Pgeants in the 1970"s

[Steve Guttag]

As Leo noted, I've found the Kinoton FP38E (including the variants) to be at the top of the heap. They are expensive, if you can find one and, being an electronic (stepper motor) intermittent, you are beholden to that mechanism and its control working. In addition to the exception picture quality (as it also opens you to 35mm format lenses with 70.6mm lens barrels instead of the smaller 16mm format variants, the FP38E's soundhead is a lot more stable than the typical 16mm projector soundhead.

It does not have an adjustment for A and B wind (emulsion towards the lamp or base towards the lamp) as 16mm could vary based on where you were in the duplication process of a title.

The mechanical FP16 and FP18 are good, as far as intermittent projectors go but noisy and their soundheads are wanting with a goofy tensioning mechanism dependent on just the right amount of damping on the various metal rollers.

I prefer Elmo over Eiki. There, I've said it. The LX-1100 and LX-2200 (1KW and 2KW respectively and both can take a 1.6KW). Elmo always beat Eiki on sound. The big weak point on Elmo are its white plastic gears...they will, eventually shrink enough to crack.

Elmo or Eiki, there is but one lens that will make the image look incredible. It is the ISCO Vario-Kiptaron 20-60mm This is not to be confused with the much more common (and about ¼ the cost) 35-65mm. The 20-60mm was blessed beyond belief. It is nothing short of incredible. Everything is right on it and it is a zoom to boot, with an incredible range. It is a 13-element lens too.

The Eastman 25 is about as solid as any projector, 16 or 35, ever made. If you go that route, make sure you can deal with it and deal with non-existent parts. But a working one is extremely good. The soundhead is near impossible to adjust (you have to flip it down but that takes it out of alignment...it is hard to describe.

I've had good results with Fumeo.

The Bauer Selecton II is also a very good machine. I'd put it above the Kinoton FP16/18 as mechanical machines go.

I dislike the Prevost P16 immensely. I've worked with multiple units and none were good, in my opinion.

[Mark Ogden]

Hoping someone here on the Film Group will have or know of someone that has a 1 inch lens or 1/2 inch lens for my Kodak Pageant 250S. I have bought a few but they have been for a early 16mm projectors from the 40's Kodak not a Pageant and are very small, wont't fit the newer Kodak Pgeants in the 1970"s

Although there is no explicit link to it here, Film-Tech also has an active 8 & 16mm forum where such things are discussed and sold. Have you tried there?

https://8mmforum.film-tech.com/vbb/

[David Ferguson]

I have an FP38EC, and it puts out a wonderful 16mm image. But others are right - they are complex to run and maintain, and not cheap to fund used (and really were not cheap when new!).

[Christian Anner]

from my experience i'll go with Steve and Leo. The 16mm range from Kinoton is the best you'll get today.
For 16mm only try to get one of the old FP16 or 18, which often is in the back of the old FP38. The E-Models have its own pros and cons as mentioned above.

Cheaper and also vey reliable are the also mentioned Bauer Selecton Models. (Selecton II O) If you find one of these, look for the models with the narrower sprockets, they are better for shrunken films. BUT: the Selecton is not very light efficient. In Comparisson a Bauer P8 T400 is brighter than a Selecton with the 900w xenonlamp. It need 3Phase power (Kinoton not), if you can grab a studioversion, the amp is integrated in the pedestenal (heavy) the steadyness is also a critical point here, theres a geardrive between the intermittend and the sprocket, which often is worn out due to lack of maintenance.

[Ryan Gallagher]

Although there is no explicit link to it here, Film-Tech also has an active 8 & 16mm forum where such things are discussed and sold. Have you tried there?

https://8mmforum.film-tech.com/vbb/

Will definitely direct him there. Thanks! I had forgotten that existed!

[Ryan Gallagher]

Is your friiend going to use his new 16mm projector for the home or cinema use? There is a lot of 16mm junk on E Bay. Have him pay a little exrtra to find a restored projector that has been gone thru. Mailing costs can be expensive as they are very heavy. They must be packed good.

The question was kinda three-fold.

1. He is certainly using at home now, not even in a cinema room.
2. He would be tempted certainly by reputable professional machines, especially if they were suitable for transporting to a gig.
3. Myself am most curious about what an active booth would desire these days.

I think the responses have adequately run that gamut except maybe highlighting the best classroom style home projectors that can best handle vintage shrunken madness

Based on the video he sent me of his unit running, he first dip into 16mm projection is a Telex Sixteen currently and the sound-head is working. But definitely has a narrow lens right now. About a 2' image when the throw is 10' or more.

[Jim Cassedy]

They had one of the 16/35mm Kinotons over at Dolby's Potrero screening room,
but I never had occasion to use it while working there. The two 16mm machines
I've seen and worked with the most are the Eastman 25's. (One was still set up
for carbon arcs). I've been to shows over at The Paramount in Oakland, where
I know they have one. The picture is rock-steady, even with the long throw and
big screen they have there. The difference I notice the most when they run 16
at some of these big venues is the difference in sound between 16 & 35mm,
but that's a limitation of the 16mm sound track, and not the projector itself.
The biggest problem with the Eastman 25's is finding spare parts. One venue
I know of here in SF bought two of them (not working) just for the parts value.

[Scott Norwood]

I dislike the Prevost P16 immensely. I've worked with multiple units and none were good, in my opinion.

Agreed.

Otherwise, what Leo said: FP38E or Eastman 25 (or 40). Accept no substitutes.

Don't the FP16 and/or FP18 have some time-bomb with the plastic (Delrin?) gate?

I don't love the Hortson, but I don't hate it, either. I believe that the exciter lamps are NLA.

The best home machine is probably the Elmo XP750, but those are pretty rare. There are also 550 and 350 watt Elmo and Eiki xenon models that are good. The portable Elmos usually have rubber rollers that contact the film that should be replaced before they turn old and gooey. Larry Urbanski sells these; there might be other sources for them as well. Elmo > Eiki with damaged or shrunken film. The portable machines often sell for more than the full-size machines because they are more suitable for home use.

[Leo Enticknap]

Don't the FP16 and/or FP18 have some time-bomb with the plastic (Delrin?) gate?

They eventually wore out, and for a long time it was difficult or impossible to buy replacements. Then Rosbeek Techniek out of The Netherlands started to produce aftermarket ones, which I heard very positive things about. However, Mr. Rosbeek passed away in 2021, and the website has a 2020 date on the bottom. So it's not clear to me if his company is still in business and making these parts.

[Ryan Gallagher]

There does happen to be an 3 Eastman 25s on ebay right now, though only one is photographed (via MagnaTech of course).

https://www.ebay.com/itm/257156651598

Magnatech seems to have a monopoly on the rest of the listings for FP16, FP18, FP26, and FP38D of what is currently available. But yeah a bit of sticker shock to jump to any of these reputable machines.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

I worked on Eiki, Elmo and Kodak 16mm's at a big School District west of Chicago for a number of years. To be honest, the one that came in least for service was the Kodak. Eiki was the most repaired, only because of the number they had, and because many of the machines were getting old. The Elmo's came in way less because they were the later purchased machines. In total there was just over 800 16mm projectors in that District.

No one mentions the Eastman 25? It's the best 16mm ever made, PERIOD! My next choice would be the FP-38, but I don't really care for the FP-16, and FP-18., The Bauer Selecton for pedestal machines is also great.Then the school projectors after those. I agree on the Kodak Pageant, it is extremely gentle on film. IMHO The Eiki, and Elmo are pretty much in the same league, with the Elmo having the edge in design newness over the Eiki.

[Tony Bandiera Jr]

There does happen to be an 3 Eastman 25s on ebay right now, though only one is photographed (via MagnaTech of course).

https://www.ebay.com/itm/257156651598

Magnatech seems to have a monopoly on the rest of the listings for FP16, FP18, FP26, and FP38D of what is currently available. But yeah a bit of sticker shock to jump to any of these reputable machines.

That sticker shock is due to Magna-Techs overinflated prices on most stuff. To be fair, I do realize they have a very high overhead costs (Huge warehouse, tech who check and refurbish equipment, etc.) but I get the impression they don't get the value in moving inventory in a timely manner by selling at a smaller margin, making up for it in volume.

That said, I knew of folks in the industry who have bought from them and the equipment was as promised, in good condition, and any issues were handled quickly by them. Guess it comes down to what you are willing to pay, and if you are ok with the pricing, they offer good service and value based on that metric.