Help with the path of our sound

[Tj Hopland]

So a bit of a recap.....

Sounds like several of us are thinking along the same lines, 650 is a necessary evil for film but should not be the head of the system. Head of the system should be a currently available option that has the 6 channel analog input. Those options appear to be AP25, DPM30, Ovation2, and then the QSYS or Harmon's equivalent modular dsp platforms.

Some sort of converter to get into the 950 doesn't look like a viable option and some sort of downstream switching is going to cost to do it reasonably well too, my guess it could be as much as some of the above processors. At least if you are replacing the 950 you should be able to recoup some of its value. Does your group have other screens or sites that could use it? If not then being a current product I would think your dealer would be able to help you sell it one way or another.


When did the AP25 come out? I assume the legacy modules were the same as the AP20 used or did they have to re design those too?


I forget about the DPM, Cost vs the typically required features its usually not at the top of the list but in this case it has one of the key required features so maybe? If you have DCA / ISA or that one line of Crown and your amps are close the dataport connectors are great. Other or remote amps you need breakout boards or custom cables which isn't a deal breaker as long as you know that in advance and plan for it. Its really only a problem when you open the box in the booth and then realize you need something with ah HD15 connector and you are looking at a return trip and or overnight freight.

Other things of note on the DPM front, I have not checked the most recent price list but at least initially you could get it with or without the H option, its possible with QSC reducing the lineup maybe they don't offer both anymore? The H option added the HDMI de embedding feature as well as Dolby and DTS decoding. Guessing they must be using the same chip for that as they do in the H version of the DCIO module for the QSYS platform. Doing both Dolby and DTS decoding is a nice feature you get with the QSC offerings so depending on what sort of alt content and programming you do that could be another point in the pro column.

Last thought of note which could be a serious factor to consider in this application is the front panel manual controls and built in monitor speaker might as well not be there. Not a problem for the typical multiplex application it was designed for where there is almost never anyone or any reason for anyone to need to do anything manually. This can be overcome with automation but the workflow should be considered and it could be additional cost if you don't already have something like a Jnior or Ecna and someone to program them.

[Ryan Gallagher]

Having 70mm in play also opens up the possibility of needing a mag track capable system too. Lots of the existing 70mm titles that can be booked are still mag prints.

I think our booth is slated to go the Q-SYS route soon, but we do all of the above except 35mm Mag audio. And our AP20+CP650+CP500 is the arrangement that makes it all possible (for us). We have to do a few weird things like split up the 16 inputs for two systems etc... and our situation might be less complicated because we lack some accessibility accessories that might complicate the setup.

I will add a vote against HDMI for primary playback (except when you have to for blu-rays etc). the 950's support might be better, but the AP20's HDMI handling is pretty awful... plenty of features, it's just not so good about getting sync on the audio every time you switch to one of those formats. I only use it when I can confirm sync before an audience enters for pre-show, or it is the only format in play. Switching to it mid-event for some reason is very risky until we start handling our HDMI switching elsewhere and just let the AP20 focus on a single HDMI input.

Edit, to be fair our DCI upgrade was designed with an Extron HDMI switcher to handle that side, but it gave prior operators so many issues itself that they bypassed and retired it (without replacing it).

[Tj Hopland]

Ryan, how does yours work? AP20 is the 'head'? Then why 650 & 500? And how are those switched? I guess I have not looked carefully especially recently but I was thinking when it came to film the 500 and 650 were pretty similar as far as what was supported but maybe there are some formats that are different? And then I know your venue also does a lot of live events, is there a complete basically independent from the live system for the cinema? And is it using mostly typical cinema gear for amps and speakers? Or do you have some hybrid mixing and matching going on?


And for anyone considering doing any handling of mag prints make sure you have a tech with the tools (gauss meter among them) and experience to do a proper magnetic sweep of the whole booth. Many of the projector brands and models have things in and near the film path that are made from ferrous metals and can easily become magnetized from normal use as well as by someone using a magnetized tool such as a screwdriver. Doing a pre check didn't only involve checking and demagnetizing projector parts and heads you also had to do a sweep of the whole booth. The booth tool set had to be checked and likely cleaned up. Do a scan anywhere the film could be to make sure its safe. Maybe someone forgot there are some high frequency drivers on a shelf near where the film could be passed or stored.

A constant tick was a common thing usually from someone with a magnetized screwdriver making some quick adjustment near a sprocket. At least back in the day for a current release it was possible to send it back to the lab and have them re record the track. Today? Do the machines even exist? And if they do and there is someone that knows how to run them? And if those things are possible then who has or does a printmaster even still exist in usable condition? Probably several no's there so basically at a minimum every other reel is now 'trashed'.

Back when mag was running through booths fairly regular like at least a few titles per year it really wasn't a big deal or that time consuming to do a sweep and cleanup. Stuff usually wasn't that bad and everyone mostly knew not to bring different random tools or magnets into that booth or part of the booth. I don't think I ever did a check and didn't find any issues, usually there was something that could have easily caused damage. As more time passes like even say just a couple years it could become quite the process where you could end up having to disassemble things to get em 'clean'. And if that stretches out to many years and even worse with many people involved.

[Ryan Gallagher]

Sorry, I mis-spoke, I meant CP200 for our mag side. Yes the AP20 serves as our head and handles most of the B-chain room stuff. The other processors are feeding it a flat EQ etc.

i’ve had a long break from film, I’d have to go look again to remember our specific routing. There is a toggle switch involved to select the CP650 vs CP200 for the change-overs to work correctly.

And yes, there is a fully separate PA and system in this room for live events, which sometimes augments for premieres and festivals or any film event with more than just a pre-show speech. Our smaller DCI only room has a hybrid system with less than ideal L+R placement due to using the PA clusters.

Tell me about it on the mag safety, I had to learn a lot in a hurry when they started booking those again, most of that journey is documented in some of my earlier threads here.

[Steve Guttag]

I've never understood the people that have a CP200 and then opt to have a CP650 or other film processor too. One you have the CP200, you've paid the rack-space overhead. I'd be willing to wager I can keep a CP200 going longer than you can keep a CP500 or CP650 going. Where I have CP200s, they are still THE film processor and they then feed into a digital cinema processor, of some type, like a DCP300 and soon to be Q-SYS.

I'll still use a CP650 for a 35mm system with just 2-projectors though I'm now leaning towards a CP65/DA20 combination. As the years tick on, the ability to keep a CP65 going is going to be a lot easier than anything DSP based. I also have sites with Panastereo CSP1200s feeding into a larger system, including Q-SYS. But, it too is analog based.

Note, on the AP20/AP25, unlike the CP650, it doesn't address playing Dolby Digital movies. You still need a DA20 and if you are going to play DTS (for 70mm) you still need one of those outboard too. So, it isn't entirely a complete solution for film, on its own. It just has the I/O capabilities to be a single point of control/audio.

[Pete Naples]

We manufacture a switching device for these situation, it sits between the amplifiers and the CP650/CP950. Can be switch manually, or from automation.

You would need the cross-over card in your CP650 though.

[Ryan Gallagher]

Steve, I would speculate the SRD addition/requirement is mostly why the CP650 took over everything except magnetic here. Tthough if I recall there is a DA20 in storage that suggests it might have come first.

They also were doing DVDs/Laptops with consumer projectors in that era too, and I expect the DMA8 Plus served that role until the DCI system and AP20 came along. Our DMA8Plus is still in the racks, just stays on “film” all the time. DTS/Datasat XD10 for 70mm with timecode, although we do in fact have the 35mm readers if I wanted to improve our swap/mounting setup.

Never had Sony readers in this booth.

[Marco Giustini]

cat 778 are so unobtainable? I'm really asking, I don't know.

[Brian Mendelssohn]

Thanks for the amazing feedback so far. As a newby with film, its mind numbing that this is an issue port processor honestly.

We are playing both 35mm and 70mm. DTS and mag our on our agenda as well, all going to the CP650. I do a lot of alt content and have an extron matrix switcher to handle all of my HDMI stuff. I use a jnior for automation.

Since it was asked, the Datasat Ap25 came out February 2018, so that is quite old.

I do really love the CP950, and replacing it will be a big pain in the butt, but it is possible. I know Ovation2s sounds great. How does the Datasat 25 sound?

[Marco Giustini]

They all sound great from a "sound quality output" perspective. What differs between them is the tools they feature to make them sound good in your room with your speakers. 950, Ovation, AP25 would probably achieve great results in a given room is the right person with the right tools and the right amount of time is used.

That happens extremely rarely unfortunately.

(*) The AP25 would require a Dirac equalisation which requires a Dirac kit. (talking about the right person with the right tools and right time )

[Ryan Gallagher]

Yeah we've never used the DIRAC features of our AP20, but our room and presets are tuned by a Dolby tech more often than most.

[Brian Mendelssohn]

Is this the part?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/19652361882...90.c101224.m-1

[Tj Hopland]

I really don't know how many 778's were made and sold. I know there were some left when Dolby sold their remaining 650 stock to BACP, I had talked to Sam about buying one for a possible project maybe 5 years ago and at that time I think he said he had 2 left and they were becoming a popular item. I didn't ask for details but the way he said it made me think he was saying he had sold more than Dolby had.

I was curious so I looked back in my emails with Sam and that was back in 21 and at that time he called them unobatnium and had one remaining that could have been had at that time for $2000. Sounds like Meyer Sound had bought the others he had had. Maybe if you know of a site that has or had a Meyer system and no longer runs film? If Sam was still with us I'm sure he could give us an idea how many were ever around.

I didn't read the whole email chain related to that project and don't remember the details anymore especially since I didn't end up doing it but I did see that QSC was suggesting finding a Basis or Rave unit which were long out of production by that time. I was never real familiar with those. I thought one was a analog to Cobranet and then the other was Cobranet to analog but I could be wrong, maybe they could also do analog to AC3 and that's why they were suggesting it? Even if they did do AC3 they are pretty old and I don't know how common they were. It appeared that the goal of that exercise was to get a 650 into an 850 and in this case the 850 had to stay because it was an Atmos room.

[Tj Hopland]

Is this the part?

For those that don't want to click the ebay link its for a 773 and that is the 35mm SRD decoder board.

Note for those playing along if you are not planning on running SRD removing that board will allow you to re assign more format buttons.


778 was the board that converted the output to AES3 and also gave you the AES3 inputs because it replaced the 790 which was the usual 4x AES input board.

There will also be a few 774's floating around, that isn't of much use today. That gave the 650 EX decoding and 1 AES in, not the 4x we need for 7.1. I guess that AES input was used at the time for studio type stuff were they were doing something with a stereo possibly LT RT digital source. I believe the formats that used it are labeled things like printmaster.

791 was the crossover board.

[Steve Guttag]

I dunno. I consider the CP950 a pretty pedestrian piece. It has 1/12 octave graphic EQ. One can only load speaker voicings on the screen channels and they forgot to low-pass the subwoofer. One has to 2-step it to get it to do the crossover stuff using the DAD program, originally designed for Atmos. It's fine for 5.1/7.1 stuff but I wouldn't think of it for a high-end room. Certainly the OV2 and and someone that knows how to tune PEQs with Q-SYS could come out with a vastly better result. At least I feel I can. I do like that the CP950 can be serviced without removing it from the rack. That is kinda cool. And, we've had no real trouble with them, except the occasional boot up...but those are pretty rare.

As to the board Brian found...no... that is the CAT773...the Dolby Digital (film) card. The CAT778 is an AES3 card that turns all of the Main and Optional outputs to AES3 inputs/outputs. It was used, primarily, for studio set ups. I know we don't have one anymore and yes, they were worth quite a bit. They didn't have the robosound issue. And, if you had one, you'd do your A/B switching at the AES inputs to the CP950 since the CP650, at that point, wouldn't have any analog outputs.

I'm surprised that you are concerning yourself with 70mm magnetic, at this point. Any print struck before the middle of 1982 will be very pink by now. By 1994/1995, what few 70mm issues that were left switched to DTS. So, you have just over a decade of titles to choose from. Other than Far and Away, Baraka, or Hamlet, they are likely going to be blow-ups, unless they are one of the lucky few reprints of classic titles. For that, you'll need to have a good head stack and good magnetic preamps plus noise reduction for 4-6 channels. Titles after about 1988, Dolby-SR was the norm for 70mm magnetic and the number of stereo-surround titles increased. So, 6 of those too (which the CP650 can't support. It just has the equivalent of 6-channels of type A and only 2-channels of type-SR emulation). I do not believe the CP650 even supported Format 43 (Stereo surround) with A-type. The CP500 could, but just A-type. From Dolby, the CP200 could (and can) do it all. It's just piggish on the rack space and you do need all of the bits and pieces (like the DA20 and DTS players plus the Accessory rack with the various cards).

If it were me, unless you really know you have a source for magnetic 70mm prints, I wouldn't spend too much time/money fooling with magnetic sound and just worry about DTS-70, at this point.