Cinemeccanica Vic8s vs Century JJs

[Ryan Gallagher]

Interesting in hearing everyone's pros/cons take on this comparison.

I've been informed our venue is considering, as part of their renovation refresh period coming up, replacing our somewhat mis-matched pair of Century JJs with some "new to us" matched and serviced Vic8s from Magna-Tech for our 35mm/70mm capacity going forward.

I've grown to love our quirky little JJs, and had been looking forward to further improvement and unification of their states although they will never be a fully matched pair.... replacing a 6track mag head, installing a correct sound head hanger for better lamp alignment on one of them, dolby optical alignments, knocking our dual shutter unit down to single shutter operation, perhaps a move to Kelmar reel arms, etc.

So I'm perhaps too biased to form my own opinions about this "upgrade" potential, because I feel like a modest amount of money and effort would go a long way with what we already have. Interested in others.

I am also not super fond of a working pair of JJs going to Magna-Tech in a discount scheme. I wish we could give/sell these to another venue locally, but those decisions are way above my pay grade.

Nevermind that I'd be tempted to rescue/buy them personally... but I also don't want to become a person who has a storage unit just for projectors I can't use either.

[Tj Hopland]

I too am curious what the parts and support situation is like for these both here in North America and other countries. Things like intermittent sprockets and aperture plates would be the biggest concerns. I don't recall what the V8 plates looked like or if they used any 'soft' runners or bands in the gate area, worked on more V5's than 8's and even those are a pretty distant memory now. If they used soft parts and had a complex embossed plate I would want to make sure you could get your hands on a decent supply of that stuff for a decent price. If the plates are flat that's a more economical prospect to have some made and if the gate is ground runners that should be a lifetime item these days.

[Tj Hopland]

One feature I think I am remembering correctly is they didn't use or it was optional to have a combo 35/70 intermittent sprocket. You swapped sprockets as part of the conversion process. Nice thing about that is if one section was damaged or worn you were not loosing the other section. I think the 35's were steel so more durable and longer lasting than what you got with the usual combo sprockets.

[Leo Enticknap]

Some time back it was reported that Cinemeccanica stated that they would do another production run of new 35/70 Vic 8s if they received a minimum number of orders. I don't know if they did and it happened, but if that was a genuine possibility, it would seem that, whatever your personal preferences over the pros and cons of a given projector model may be, running a model that is actively supported by an OEM that is still in business is an argument in favor, versus one that is not. Cinemeccanica states on its website that it is "the only company in the world still able to offer 35mm and 70mm projectors for every type of cinema screen. Over 100 years of experience allow us to provide consultancy, assistance and spare parts on film cinema projectors and to propose 35mm or 70mm solutions." This would seem to imply that it is still possible to buy any spares and consumables you may need for a Vic 5 or a Vic 8.

[Ryan Gallagher]

Some time back it was reported that Cinemeccanica stated that they would do another production run of new 35/70 Vic 8s if they received a minimum number of orders. I don't know if they did and it happened, but if that was a genuine possibility, it would seem that, whatever your personal preferences over the pros and cons of a given projector model may be, running a model that is actively supported by an OEM that is still in business is an argument in favor, versus one that is not. Cinemeccanica states on its website that it is "the only company in the world still able to offer 35mm and 70mm projectors for every type of cinema screen. Over 100 years of experience allow us to provide consultancy, assistance and spare parts on film cinema projectors and to propose 35mm or 70mm solutions." This would seem to imply that it is still possible to buy any spares and consumables you may need for a Vic 5 or a Vic 8.

I think that aspect is one of the major motivating factors for considering the change. That and the desire to finally have a matching pair instead of what were probably hand-me-down conversions from desperate locations by cinema techs of yore.

My impression is Vic8 supported 6 track mag too... so presumably we'd be keeping our CP200 system for that, if the ones being offered are even outfitted for mag as built, but presumably it might be able to be re-added at some point. I'll admit I have not done a deep dive on the Vic8 manuals yet.

Would I prefer Norelco's... yes. But I don't think anyone is budgeting for that kind of projector sourcing and install from outfits like BLS.

[David Ferguson]

On the modern Vic8s that I have seen, they do not have magnetic soundheads. Whether it is possible to specify that as an option today I do not know - but I suspect not. Magnetic tape heads are not getting any easier to find.

The Vic8 is a good machine. I’ve never seen or used a Century JJ so cannot compare it, but Vic8s are common over here running both 35mm and 70mm.

[Leo Enticknap]

Would I prefer Norelco's... yes. But I don't think anyone is budgeting for that kind of projector sourcing and install from outfits like BLS.

As someone who likely did most of my projectionist hours on DP70s/Norelco AAs, they would be my first choice of 35/70 machine with all other considerations being equal, too. But they're not, and the last I knew, spares support was still a big problem for them (especially now that Ronald Rosbeek has passed away, and it's not clear if his business still exists and is producing aftermarket spares). A particular vulnerability is the cast iron vertical shaft: if it breaks (and they occasionally do), the projector is disabled unless and until you can find a replacement. And even if you can, swapping it out makes doing a worm drive on a Hell & Bowell look like child's play.

[Ryan Gallagher]

The Vicf8 aperture plates look pretty annoying to manufacture compared to JJ ones, but as Cinemeccanica is still around presumably you can just get some from the source. Don't know how much longer they'll be around, I'd be tempted to buy a whack ton of starter or blank ones for both 35mm and 70mm in my booth, just in case they go under.

[Ryan Gallagher]

On the modern Vic8s that I have seen, they do not have magnetic soundheads. Whether it is possible to specify that as an option today I do not know - but I suspect not. Magnetic tape heads are not getting any easier to find.

The Vic8 is a good machine. I’ve never seen or used a Century JJ so cannot compare it, but Vic8s are common over here running both 35mm and 70mm.

Interesting to note. I'll try to get more details about what is exactly included in the pair they are considering. The first video I found on youtube of someone threading 70mm was a mag print, so it was possible at some point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9pXVepEYdM

Are there common basement Dolby Digital reader methods with Vic8? Or would we still likely be using our 702s in an attic configuration? etc. Presumably DTS would all still be with the bolt on readers too.

I'd love to get a 3 lens turret as we are often swapping to 70mm or 1.38, but also not sure that was ever a thing for the Vic8. But turret is really quite optional since we don't automate. It's just nice to not have to remove and level the scope lenses.

[Jim Cassedy]

Back in Y2k17 when first found out I was being sent to San Antonio for a month of
70mm DUNKIRK shows, I was told that I'd either be running a CInemeccanica or
Century projector. I made sure that I had this info before I flew out there, because
it made a difference in if I needed to bring my standard or metric tool kit. I also
carry a few accessory parts, like spare threading and framing bulbs which are
different for each machine. So I wanted to know which to bring. I wound up with JJ's.
I can practically thread JJ's with my eyes closed, but for some reason, I always need
to keep a threading chart nearby for Cinemeccanica machines because every once
and awhile I get a brain-freeze while threading them up. It's something about the
way the lower loop wants to be that always throws me off.

[Leo Enticknap]

I could thread a Vic 5 with my eyes closed, one hand tied behind my back, and likely after several naughty beverages as well, but like you, always got a bit confused by the Vic 8. But I think that's just because I only ever had to touch them during relief shifts once or twice: I never worked permanently at any theater that had them.

Several projectionists I've known seem to have blind spots with the threading of one specific model. A co-worker at the Egyptian was so scared of 16mm on the FP-38E that he asked not to be scheduled for shifts that included a 16mm show (which were unusual enough that this was not a problem - it only happened four or five times a year).

[Victor Liorentas]

I have found the Vic 8 to be super smooth with both 35mm and 70 mm however if you don't get the loop size and gate tension in the optimal pocket it will give you trouble with bounce. Seems less forgiving if the tension is off compared to other machines. When it's optimized It's great! I love it!

[Ryan Gallagher]

Where would a Vic8 fall on the scale of care to the film itself?

I've heard Century JJs are not the best available but are right up there properly configured. We do have a Library of Congress loan program agreement, and occasionally run true archival prints.

[Steve Guttag]

I could probably write long lists about what is wrong with either machine. Neither has a lock on good or bad. With Cinemeccanica, getting a good set of gates is key as we used to say "Cinemeccanica put the motion in motion pictures." If you do get a good set of gates/traps, then it could be steady. I was never a fan of the Cinemeccanica optical soundhead. It is easy to get eccentric rotation and the tail of the film likes to grab whatever is between the drum halves. Back in the forward scan days, I changed a lot of solar cells from tails with tape on them. I definitely would make sure I had inverter drive with a decent ramp up/down on them too.

Century? It's a cement mixer, even when new. It is crude but it can be effective. The JJ projects 35mm better than the SA does, in my opinion. It is possible to get a JJ to not damage film but it isn't a given, depending on the flavor, what parts are being used and who is threading it. Even if you bought two new ones, with sequential serial numbers, odds are, they'd have different personalities and would fit differently. That's Century. But, with minimal (and crude) tools, one can do most repairs on one. Keep the gears greased and the intermittent properly filled with oil and it can last a bit.

Yes, the V8 did/does have magnetic capability. On the upper-right of the machine is where the penthouse would go (and why there is an upper sprocket (or plug if the penthouse is omitted). It wasn't the best but could work.

The Vic 8's intermittent sprocket is 35/70. You're thinking of the Bauer U2...all sprockets were changed between 35 and 70. It was a nice feature though they wore like butter.

[Tony Bandiera Jr]

I could probably write long lists about what is wrong with either machine. Neither has a lock on good or bad. With Cinemeccanica, getting a good set of gates is key as we used to say "Cinemeccanica put the motion in motion pictures." If you do get a good set of gates/traps, then it could be steady. I was never a fan of the Cinemeccanica optical soundhead. It is easy to get eccentric rotation and the tail of the film likes to grab whatever is between the drum halves. Back in the forward scan days, I changed a lot of solar cells from tails with tape on them. I definitely would make sure I had inverter drive with a decent ramp up/down on them too.

Century? It's a cement mixer, even when new. It is crude but it can be effective. The JJ projects 35mm better than the SA does, in my opinion. It is possible to get a JJ to not damage film but it isn't a given, depending on the flavor, what parts are being used and who is threading it. Even if you bought two new ones, with sequential serial numbers, odds are, they'd have different personalities and would fit differently. That's Century. But, with minimal (and crude) tools, one can do most repairs on one. Keep the gears greased and the intermittent properly filled with oil and it can last a bit.

Yes, the V8 did/does have magnetic capability. On the upper-right of the machine is where the penthouse would go (and why there is an upper sprocket (or plug if the penthouse is omitted). It wasn't the best but could work.

The Vic 8's intermittent sprocket is 35/70. You're thinking of the Bauer U2...all sprockets were changed between 35 and 70. It was a nice feature though they wore like butter.

As usual, Steve is spot-on. I had a few 35mm only Vics floating around in my service days, and I always called them "Cinema-crank-ic-a" as they were temperamental and could have image problems that made the Ballenswine Bounce (TM) look acceptable. I also had to replace dozens of solar cells on them for the reason Steve stated. They are, in general, more difficult to service as well.

Sure they are still in production, and yes parts are available, at a very high premium. And they require absolute threading discipline as Victor pointed out. Some very important factors to consider when the venue doesn't run them five times a day seven a week. Hell, I serviced those beasts and had to re-train myself on threading every time as I didn't have the same constant exposure I did with Century, Simplex and later the Christie P35s.

And Century... again, Steve nailed it. Cement mixer is a good name for them. (Just avoid the India clones CInecita (sorry to see ya) and Monee (Moan-ee as that's the sound you'll make every show as it breaks down for the millionth time.) Those aren't even worth the scrap metal price.

Spare parts can still be had (especially from folks on the forum here) pretty cheap compared to the Italian supermodel machines. Apertures are easy to find or even fabricate locally if necessary. Even drive gears could(at a cost) be remanufactured locally by an experienced machinist.

Centuries require the use of the Lavezzi film trap alignment gauge to keep the trap in perfect alignment at all times, and you cannot interchange traps and gates, they MUST stay with the machine they are set up for. (Pretty much true for Simplex as well, but they tend to be more forgiving and somewhat easier on film, with the exception of the 35/70mm models. Only the ones personally modified by Howard Straight were worth a damn. I had one that I went through with some help from Howard before he passed, and could only get it to barely passable for 70mm. I sure wouldn't have run an archive print with it.

Speaking of the Century gates, DO NOT, EVER, TRY TO ADJUST THE LOOP "FINGERS" AT THE TOP OF THE GATE. They can break easily leaving you two nice knife edges pointed at the edges of the film. A certain dome theatre I used to serviced destroyed a brand new 70mm print of "Empire Strikes Back" on the first run (press midnite screening) when the popcorn kid dropped the gate and snapped the polished tips of the fingers off. Said kid threaded the film anyways (even using a gate form another machine would have been a much better option), made too large of a top loop, and proceeded the shave the mag track off o the entire print.

You have to handle the Century gates carefully and if you ever drop one, look very closely at the alignment of those fingers. A slight misalignment might be ok, but if they are noticeably bent towards (or away from) the film and trap, replace it and re-align the trap assembly to it.

Stay on top of keeping the gear train greased (DON'T FORGET THE MAIN DRIVE GEAR IN THE BOTTOM AS MOST THEATRES DID), and keep the oil in the intermittent full and CLEAN. IF THE INTERMITTENT OIL TURNS BROWN OR RUSTY COLOR, REPLACE THE INTERMITTENT OR REBUILD IT IMMEDIATELY! That color comes from the internal bushing disintegrating and it acts like grinding compound on the star and cam.

If you made it this far Ryan, my advice fro you and your venue owners: get a nice refurbished set of Century JJ's and call it a day. They will have a high familiarity factor for you and the other projectionists, you can still find parts for them for less money, and they are a lot less persnickity to thread and operate (again very important for avenue that doesn't grind film 5/7/365.)

The replies you've gotten so far reflect close to over 200 YEARS of combined experience in this industry, mine being 40 of that, Steve's being more than mine, and Leo (I've known of him from this forum for 30 plus), Victor and Dave has lots of hands-on with the Vics. Jim has a lot of experience as well.