Terminator 2 Re-release

[Ryan Gallagher]

If they are re-distributing 1990s mag striped prints, I can foresee a number of hurdles. Firstly, many if not most of the 5/70-equipped theaters operating today are only equipped for DTS audio. Secondly, of those that theoretically could play mag, are the heads still OK? Do the preamp cards still work? Etc. etc. If an irreplaceable print is played through heads that are physically damaged and/or magged up, well, there goes that print. Finally, unless those prints have been stored in a cool and dry vault for the last 35 years, they will likely have shrunk significantly. Polyester for release printing didn't become mainstream until the late '90s, and I don't believe that mag striped polyester prints were ever made (though am willing to be corrected on that).

100% agree. Our mag system was fairly intact for 70mm I was told, but even I discovered it was not as "maintained" as it should have been. Plus there is all the extra care needed in the booth and projector removing all sources of magnetized material prior to print handling. If they are distributing a mag 70mm print in this era, I feel like they also need to be distributing and film techs and projectionists to go with it.

We ran some with "some" success, but eventually I told management no more until they replace their one aged and definitely worn out ampex head and get us on matched heads.

[Marcel Birgelen]

I doubt this re-release of 34-year-old 5/70 acetate-based film will ever happen. It doesn't make any sense... I'm largely repeating Leo, but yeah, I guess he's right... Are any of those prints any good anymore, shrunk so far they barely fit anymore? What happens when those prints get out of cooling for months on end? Does the studio want them to start rotting away?!

Really, would you want such a fragile print to be send out to commercial theaters? How many 5/70 theaters are still equipped for magnetic sound? How good will it actually sound? What good is a 70mm projection if the sound sucks multiple industrial vacuum cleaners of strength units, because no mag striped film has run through that sound head for the last 30 years?

Even the 70mm re-release of 2001 spearheaded by Christopher Nolan was a re-release with DTS, struck from an old interpositive... and to be honest, that re-release kind-of-sucked, because that interpositive wasn't in the best of conditions... it was a bad demo of what 70mm can do.

[Ryan Gallagher]

FYI in70mm seems to confirm from the 70mm blow-up listings that there were both mag-stripe and CDS blow ups in original inventory. Which was pretty small to begin with.

"Dual 70mm print inventory (18 mag-stripe & 6 CDS). "

There was a triple inventory of 70mm prints of “Terminator 2”: (1) Cinema Digital Sound, (2) A-encoded Six-Track Dolby Stereo, and (3) SR-encoded Six-Track Dolby Stereo, each with a split surround playback option. The 70mm prints featured full-frame imagery (2.20:1) blown up from Super-35. And there was a triple inventory of 35mm prints: (1) Cinema Digital Sound, (2) Dolby A, and (3) Dolby SR. The film’s 35mm prints were blown up from Super-35 and optically re-photographed in anamorphic format (2.39:1).

If the sources are really coming from these historic prints. Is this really a "re-release"? Or is this more that Rialto has decided to make some of those prints available for distribution all the sudden? I feel like those are two difference concepts in terms of distribution scale. But my sense of how many 70mm prints got struck in other re-releases is non-existent. Maybe we are close to that number with the vintage prints.

[Steve Guttag]

I would think that a 1990s print, if that is being reissued would not be as shrunk as Leo thinks it might. Color wouldn't be an issue either. Once you get past mid 1982, color isn't really a problem. I would think wear and tear on a 1990's print would be the issue. That is, I would be surprised if such a vintage print, if it had been going out to various theatres wouldn't have a lot of battle scars on it.

As for mag. I would have near zero concerns about mag heads themselves. Once Teccon heads became the norm in the '80s, longevity of them were such that very few houses would wear them out. More likely, the mechanics of the various 70mm penthouses would be the bigger issue. If rollers, stabilizers and their bearings haven't been spinning for decades, they likely are not going to just snap back to life without some TLC and possible bearing changes, depending on the system's design.

I can say that the AFI/Silver can certainly play magnetic sound (35mm or 70mm) on a moment's notice with no NR, Type-A or Type-SR. But they are in the business of running vintage titles. Leo's point about the vast majority of the theatres running 70mm now are only set up for DTS is very true. If magnetic prints are being issued, they need to verify if the perspective sites are really set up and prepared for magnetic sound.

[Marcel Birgelen]

As for mag. I would have near zero concerns about mag heads themselves. Once Teccon heads became the norm in the '80s, longevity of them were such that very few houses would wear them out. More likely, the mechanics of the various 70mm penthouses would be the bigger issue. If rollers, stabilizers and their bearings haven't been spinning for decades, they likely are not going to just snap back to life without some TLC and possible bearing changes, depending on the system's design.

I can say that the AFI/Silver can certainly play magnetic sound (35mm or 70mm) on a moment's notice with no NR, Type-A or Type-SR. But they are in the business of running vintage titles. Leo's point about the vast majority of the theatres running 70mm now are only set up for DTS is very true. If magnetic prints are being issued, they need to verify if the perspective sites are really set up and prepared for magnetic sound.

It's institutions like AFI/Silver I'd actually trust with such a print, but not the multiplex that jumped onto the 70mm bandwagon.

Looking at all the select houses around here that invested into the 70mm revival as of the last decade and a half or so, I only know two that would technically be able to play mag sound and one of them is connected to an institution which is tasked with archival of "culturally important assets".

I've run several "old" acetate-based movies back in the days, if stored somewhat decently, color will not be a big issue after 30 or so years. Shrinkage MAY be an issue and it's a major issue if you let those prints get handled by people that don't know about shrinkage...

Besides those rare prints potentially getting battered, especially those prints with mag tracks, the problem with deacetylation is that you don't control WHEN it starts, unless you keep your prints in cold storage. If you take them out of cold storage for prolonged time, you may just trigger the process. From there, there is no way back, you can only slow it down.

If you really want to do a proper re-release on 70mm, then strike new prints from an IP or other close-to-master source. Obviously, there is a cost difference here, but losing those 70mm prints due to projection booth rampage would probably incur a bigger damage, as those prints are pretty much irreplaceable.

[David Ferguson]

I'm going to have to call bs on that one. Terminator 2 was a 1991 release by Tri-Star. DTS came around in 1993 with Jurassic Park with Universal behind it financially. There is just no way that 2 years prior to the DTS format's release that a non-Universal movie would have been a test for the timecode track printing. Other things to consider is that Terminator 2 prints were made at the Technicolor lab and the early DTS titles were all done at the Deluxe lab. And a small studio would have been willing to run a test that would provide no benefit to the small studio whatsoever on prints of their biggest moneymaker?

I believe whoever told you that simply gets letters jumbled in their heads. I've seen many people do this over the years where they mix up DTS and CDS.

Yeah...zero chance of DTS. The "test" for DTS, in theatres, was the 35mm Jurassic Park trailer. It was quad-track, as I recall but it was definitely DTS. If you bought a player and you were running that trailer, you had high confidence in your set up.

I am indeed wrong - although only partially. I had thought that DTS did some tests with putting timecode on Terminator II prints, but what they actually did was do some tests of encoding the Terminator II soundtrack into DTS - it's serial 01048. But I don't think any CDs were ever made, or any prints with a track ever recorded.

[David Ferguson]

Looking at all the select houses around here that invested into the 70mm revival as of the last decade and a half or so, I only know two that would technically be able to play mag sound and one of them is connected to an institution which is tasked with archival of "culturally important assets".

In the UK I'd trust two, used to be three, places to run 70mm mag - assuming we're not talking collectors which would add to the count a bit. There are more that can (and do) but I wouldn't trust them because I have seen their film handling practises...

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

Seems like every hit movie from the '80s is getting a reissue, and some '70s ones too. We're doing the Top Gun/Top Gun Maverick reissue next week. They're actually being reasonable by letting us alternate the two movies on the weeknights.

There was LOTS of great 70mm releases n the 1980's', and many do deserve to be re-released. I would love to watch a 70mm print of Predator again. Fantastic effects and sound mix on that movie!!

[Marcel Birgelen]

There was LOTS of great 70mm releases n the 1980's', and many do deserve to be re-released. I would love to watch a 70mm print of Predator again. Fantastic effects and sound mix on that movie!!

Predator is an oddball case. I like the framing of the original LaserDisc (and probably also VHS) in 4:3 (open matte) far more than the more faithful framing found on later DVD and BluRay releases. I've never had the opportunity to watch a 70mm blow-up, but would certainly drive a considerable distance to do so, same for Aliens in 70mm.

[Sean Weitzel]

Even if there were CDS prints left, does any commercial theater have a CDS reader and processor setup?

I have never heard of any theater that still has CDS equipment lying around. Having said that, even if there were there are two serious technical issues that would have to be addressed. One, the drum in the sound reader was coated with a very thin layer of rubber like what tape recorder pinch rollers are made of. I once looked at a pair of readers and this rubber had turned to a sticky goo. I can only imagine all of them would be in this condition. Even if the coating could somehow be perfectly cleaned off, what was it's original intended purpose and would the CCD camera still be able to lock onto the track without this dampening rubber coating? Second, the code that boots and runs the processor (computer) is contained in a battery backed Non-Volatile ram chip on one of the boards. The chip manufacturer (Dallas) guranteed the integrated battery would last for at least 10 years minimum. Here we are 36 years later. I realize that some NVRAM modules used in all sorts of things have shown to last 15 to 20 years however it's entirely possible the battery has failed and the code is gone forever.

[Marcel Birgelen]

Did CDS ever evolve beyond prototype stage? With like a dozen of movies and fewer than 100 locations, it's truly a niche format in history. I can't even find any evidence it ever made it over the pond.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

Did CDS ever evolve beyond prototype stage? With like a dozen of movies and fewer than 100 locations, it's truly a niche format in history. I can't even find any evidence it ever made it over the pond.

They tried to, but no one took it seriously. There were so many failed showings with the system. When I had my dealership running outside Chicago they called and asked if I wanted to be a dealer. I passed on it in a polite way. The basis of it would become SDDS a couple years later, even a few of the people moved over to Sony. Dan Taylor was one of them...

[Jim Cassedy]

Even if there were CDS prints left, does any
commercial theater have a CDS reader and processor setup?

I can confirm that that there is apparently one CDS 70mm print of T-2 in existence,
because I received some panicked e-mails over the weekend from our bookers and
schedulers asking 'if we had the equipment to play it" or 'if there was some workaround",
because apparently somebody found it and wanted to know if we could use it in July.
Brad knows more about the existance of this print, if he cares to share more info.

As I mentioned in another post, 10 years ago, I spent 3 weeks running 70mm shows
at a venue here in SF, that at one time supposedly had a CDS sound installation.
During that time, one of the managers told me about "an entire room full of old
equipment" on one of the upper floors. I had a key and went up there and checked
it out on several occasions to see if there was any equipment they might want to get
rid of. It was a very large room, and I went through everything up there several times.
If there had been an old CDS system there, I would have seenit, and definitely
photographed it. (and would have offered to buy it) I dug out all the photos I took up
in that room again the other day and went through them, and I can identify every piece
f projection, sound, lamphouse, stage lighting, and platter equipment I see in those pix;
- - But no CDS proscessor or reader.

BONUS INFO:
While researching CDS info, and going through old newspaper ads, I discovered that my
current venue was one of only 3 theaters in San Francisco to have booked T-2 on its'
opening day ( July 3, 1991) albeit in 35mm. However, the UA Galaxy had it in 70/CDS
Term2_GalaxySF_CDS.jpg

The UA Galaxy opened in 1984, and closed in 2005. The late Sam Chavez was
involved in 'decommissioning' it when it closed, and I recall asking him about the
CDS system, and he said that the CDS stuff was 'long gone' by the time UA closed
the place. The building was totally demolished in 2011, and I believe a CVS Drug
Store occupies that property now.

[Chris Haller]

I can confirm that that there is apparently one CDS 70mm print of T-2 in existence,
because I received some panicked e-mails over the weekend from our bookers and
schedulers asking 'if we had the equipment to play it" or 'if there was some workaround",
because apparently somebody found it and wanted to know if we could use it in July.
Brad knows more about the existance of this print, if he cares to share more info.

I would wager that that print is probably the least worn of the bunch. Just sitting there, unable to be used by existing rep theaters. Nothing we can do about at all.

Which is why I am shocked that no one pitched the idea of making new prints. I know they'd look different from existing prints, but at least a truckload more theaters could run them. 70mm does sell, for better or for worse.

[David Ferguson]

Very exciting, so there is at least one 35mm and now one 70mm CDS print of Terminator 2... anyone willing to sell them?

I seem to remember it being mentioned in the Forum archives that Brad has part of a CDS setup - is that true? I've also heard there may be some equipment in the UK, but I didn't chase it down because of the lack of prints.