70MM The Odyssey

[Marcel Birgelen]

Nice to see a TS-1 in action.

I'm not even sure if the AP-25 cinema processor product they sell is compatible with the old DTS Theatrical audio format (it does support consumer DTS-HD Master Audio though).

Consumer DTS and "cinematic" DTS are different beasts, although once supported and licensed by the same company. The AP-20/25 only support several consumer DTS versions. There is also no CD-ROM drive anymore to read DTS CDs. If you install the H338 card, it can do optical audio from 35mm film with most optical readers, but it's limited to analog sound with optional Dolby-A and Dolby-SR decoding.

Isn't that what Boston Light and Sound's new TS-1 processor is supposed to do?

Not really. The TS-1 is a pragmatic solution for the current situation. The TS-1 hooks in on the existing DTS timecode format and also requires a DTS timecode reader, which is, afaik, still officially a closed format. What's missing on film, both 35mm and 70mm is an open-standard film-ID and timecode format. On the other hand, whoever holds the IP for the DTS timecode, could open up the DTS timecode format itself.

[Magnus Eriksson]

Can the TS-1 player also do CSS subtitles?

[Jim Cassedy]

I'm curious; I see 70mm prints of The Odyssey
shipping on three triple-sized reels and loaded onto platters. What happens
if, like the fellow above, you want to run it as a changeover? What reel
configuration do you get from the distributor? Is it cue marked?

I run changeovers here, and almost every new 70mm release I've handled since
"Licorice Pizza" was shipped and configured to run in a changeover booth. By that
I mean they have super-extra-long head and tail leaders to keep dirt, dust and
fingerprints from getting anywhere near any part of the film that's going to wind
up on screen, and they've also had cue marks, which almost always professionally
scribed, as opposed to printed lab cues. The changover prints of ODC are on
mounted six, 5000ft reels. The longer reels run apx 40min, and there's one short
reel (R2) that runs only 21 min. The heavier reels weigh just under 45lbs- - this is
how I get my exercise - the feed spindles on our projectors are 7ft AFL.
(AFL= Above Floor Level) - I have a step stool or I'd never get them up there!

[Mark Ogden]

Very interesting, Jim, thanks for the info. It all seems strange to me, especially since the 35mm version is nine reels. I'm sure there is a logical reason for the three different reel configurations, I presume that it has to do with shipping? It seems unduly complicated from a logistics standpoint.

[Javier de Blas]

I could be wrong, but I think the reason no DTS logo is listed in the end credits of The Odyssey is due to murky trademark/patents issues.

IIRC, FotoKem is now the owner (or final caretaker) of the original DTS Theatrical format IP. A good while back the consumer electronics side of DTS separated itself from the theatrical side, spinning the theatrical portion off into what became Datasat Digital Entertainment. But now Datasat itself is largely a consumer electronics company now. I'm not sure if the company still has anything to do with supporting the theatrical DTS format. I'm not even sure if the AP-25 cinema processor product they sell is compatible with the old DTS Theatrical audio format (it does support consumer DTS-HD Master Audio though). It seems like most 5/70 projection setups are using DTS XD10 and XD20 units in the booth racks. Anyway, both DTS and Datasat companies still technically exist. So it could be tricky using either DTS or Datasat brands in advertising purposes on movie posters or end credit listings. In the film lab and projection booths most still refer to the audio format as DTS.

I really wish the DTS time code on 35mm and 70mm film prints could simply made an industry standard, general purpose time code so other audio formats could be synchronized to it. The old DTS format was decent, but now lossless audio is common and available in high bit rates. And then there are the immersive formats like Dolby Atmos. It's clear there is legit consumer demand for film-based projection in cinemas. I think the appeal would be boosted by improving the audio playback options. The magnetic analog audio tracks aren't coming back. Higher quality digital is the only way to get around the data-lossy nature of the old DTS audio format.

I have developed a tool that decodes DTS time code and syncs subtitles with it. You can see more of if it in a thread called " 35mm and 70mm subtitle system". It would be absolutely possible to do a homebrew solution that does exactly what you are saying. Right now I'm focused on improving my subtitle system and creating another tool to add DTS time code to super 8 and 16mm films. But in the future I could take a look at that too.

Best regards, Javier

[Jim Cassedy]

Very interesting, Jim, thanks for the info. It all
seems strange to me, especially since the 35mm version is nine reels. I'm sure
there is a logical reason for the three different reel configurations, I presume
that it has to do with shipping? It seems unduly complicated from a logistics
standpoint.

So, to be accurate, the 70mm version is five "projection reels".
The print itself is nine 'lab reels". So each 'projection reel' is made up
from two 'lab reels' spliced together. I do not do this. The lab reels are
professionally hot-spliced before the print gets to the theater.
The Odyssey exception is that Projection Reel 2 (which is actually
Lab Reel 3) is only consists of one reel.


To help visualize this, here's my reel data notes for ODC. I make one of
these lists for almost every 70mm show we do here. The big bold numbers
(1 thru 5) are the projection reels. The smaller numbers (1 thru 9) are the
lab reel numbers, Next is the running time for each lab reel, per the DTS
timecode, and the rightmost column is the total time for each projection reel.

ODC_CheatSheet.jpg

>>> A projection friend who is working an IMAX booth, told me that their
IMAX 15/70 ODC print is 34 lab reels.

[Ryan Gallagher]

So, to be accurate, the 70mm version is five "projection reels".
The print itself is nine 'lab reels". So each 'projection reel' is made up
from two 'lab reels' spliced together. I do not do this. The lab reels are
professionally hot-spliced before the print gets to the theater.
The Odyssey exception is that Projection Reel 2 (which is actually
Lab Reel 3) is only consists of one reel.


To help visualize this, here's my reel data notes for ODC. I make one of
these lists for almost every 70mm show we do here. The big bold numbers
(1 thru 5) are the projection reels. The smaller numbers (1 thru 9) are the
lab reel numbers, Next is the running time for each lab reel, per the DTS
timecode, and the rightmost column is the total time for each projection reel.


>>> A projection friend who is working an IMAX booth, told me that their
IMAX 15/70 ODC print is 34 lab reels.

I'm curious, do you pull those times off the DTS files themselves? Or do you notate them during tech or first screening? Seems like one would be too busy waiting for a changeover to really take notice of what timecode is on the DTS reader in that exact moment. I certainly don't expect you are running entire reels through film-counters... of which most booths don't even have a 70mm compatible version.

[Jim Cassedy]

I'm curious, do you pull those times off the DTS files
themselves? Or do you notate them during tech or first screening? .

> Unless the studio demands one, I don't usually have the time to do a complete run
through test screening for most of the 70mm films played here, however I will find
time to run at least one reel on each machine some time before the day of the first
show to check picture & sound and see if I need to tweak the masking or something.

So, to answer your question- - During the 1st show, I usually scribble down the
timecode numbers from off of the display on the DTS reader, since it shows the
ending timecode for each reel. We do have a 70mm synchronizer & footage
counter here. I don't know where it came from but it's almost useless, because it
was designed for Omnivision™️, which is an 8/70 format. The footage counter part
works OK, but it's pretty useless if you're trying to check for an out-of-frame splice
on black/blank leader film, etc. Even if we had a 5/70 footage counter I don't think
running an entire print like Odyssey through it, on the rewind bench would be a
good idea because the potential for damaging the print would be too great.

I Get My Reel Running Time Numbers From The DTS Display
OdysseyR2DTS.jpg
(Projection Reel 2 - Lab Reel 3)

One of the reasons I make that running-time sheet is because, unfortunately,
I'm also expected to keep up with ingesting.and programming the digital shows
in the other 4 auditoriums here. When I'm at my computer workstation, I do not
have a direct line-of-sight view of either of the film projectors, which are behind
me and blocked by an equipment rack. I use the running time numbers to set a
timer so that I won't miss a change-over if I get too involved with work at my
computer desk. It's also handy for figuring out if I've got enough time to make
a quick run to the restroom before a reel ends. (Oh, how I miss the days when
The Union and the fire codes demanded that there was a bathroom in every booth)

[Ryan Gallagher]

> Unless the studio demands one, I don't usually have the time to do a complete run
through test screening for most of the 70mm films played here, however I will find
time to run at least one reel on each machine some time before the day of the first
show to check picture & sound and see if I need to tweak the masking or something.

So, to answer your question- - During the 1st show, I usually scribble down the
timecode numbers from off of the display on the DTS reader, since it shows the
ending timecode for each reel. We do have a 70mm synchronizer & footage
counter here. I don't know where it came from but it's almost useless, because it
was designed for Omnivision™️, which is an 8/70 format. The footage counter part
works OK, but it's pretty useless if you're trying to check for an out-of-frame splice
on black/blank leader film, etc. Even if we had a 5/70 footage counter I don't think
running an entire print like Odyssey through it, on the rewind bench would be a
good idea because the potential for damaging the print would be too great.

I Get My Reel Running Time Numbers From The DTS Display
OdysseyR2DTS.jpg
(Projection Reel 2 - Lab Reel 3)

One of the reasons I make that running-time sheet is because, unfortunately,
I'm also expected to keep up with ingesting.and programming the digital shows
in the other 4 auditoriums here. When I'm at my computer workstation, I do not
have a direct line-of-sight view of either of the film projectors, which are behind
me and blocked by an equipment rack. I use the running time numbers to set a
timer so that I won't miss a change-over if I get too involved with work at my
computer desk. It's also handy for figuring out if I've got enough time to make
a quick run to the restroom before a reel ends. (Oh, how I miss the days when
The Union and the fire codes demanded that there was a bathroom in every booth)

That makes sense! You can tell we don't get to do a ton of 70mm here, or I might have remembered that the display offered the ending timecode! Although we have 35mm DTS readers, we've never mounted them in my time. Only about two prints would have justified it, plus one has a cracked arm on it's adjustable feed wheel at the moment.

Your reel test procedure is about the same as ours. Sans instruction to avoid reel tests, we do one on each machine after running our available loops, especially if we were not in 70mm configuration already.

We still have our union bathroom. It's quite spooky looking but "clean". ;-)

We also staff two projectionists for 70mm... makes all of that stuff way easier if you have a buddy. We try not to leave the JJs unattended... we don't have fail-safes.

[David Ferguson]

I could be wrong, but I think the reason no DTS logo is listed in the end credits of The Odyssey is due to murky trademark/patents issues.

IIRC, FotoKem is now the owner (or final caretaker) of the original DTS Theatrical format IP.

The timeline, as far as I'm aware, is the following:

• In 2008, DTS sold the theatrical side to Datasat.
• In 2016, Inventure Studios started servicing all new 70mm & 35mm projects utilizing the DTS format. I think they are currently the only official place to get a DTS CD rom master from, although other labs should be able to do the timecode negative.
• In 2018 Amplifier Technologies Inc. (ATI) acquired Datasat.

However the DTS format is... pretty easy. I have written up the timecode format, and made an Arduino timecode generator, and others (some on this forum) have software for creating the AUD and AUE files. The Foobar2000 plugin will also do this. So I'd consider it, not quite "open", but widely available. The creation of the TS-1 helps - there are now other companies making compatible hardware.

As to whom actually owns the trademarks - I am not sure. I spent some time trying to find out, but haven't been successful yet. I would guess it's ATI, or possibly under license from Inventure?

Can the TS-1 player also do CSS subtitles?

Happy to be corrected, but as far as I'm aware, not yet. However I have documented most of the subtitle format (and others are aware of the narration track format) so this shouldn't be hard to add.

[Bobby Henderson]

It has been 33 years since the theatrical DTS format first debuted, and the tech behind the format is at least a year or more older. I'm foggy on when various kinds of patents in the US expire. It would seem like any utility or design patents specifically related to theatrical DTS might be ready to expire (if they haven't expired already). Of course, I don't know if the theatrical DTS format licensed other patents that may have possibly been renewed over the years. I don't know if copyright law can be applied to the proprietary time code. At any rate, that stuff can't stay protected forever.

I think it would be best for anyone involved with current film print production if the DTS time code was made an "open source" thing. That would allow various companies to expand the audio capabilities of 35mm and 70mm film prints.

The situation also make me think about the possibility of creating a universal film reader that could not only see DTS time code, but also scan Dolby Digital data and even SDDS data. As various patents and what not expire you could end up with a film reader and processor that could handle any vintage digital audio film format.

[Sean McKinnon]

Can the TS-1 player also do CSS subtitles?

We have not implemented CSS or closed captions yet. Both are things we want to do and are pretty easy compared to everything else involved (he says now...) but out priority was getting absolutely stable and bullet proof audio playback no matter how many random bits of time code you spliced into a reel or did other abusive things to try and break it. Our plan is to continually release software updates and as I said we want to be able to support captioning devices as well as CSS style captions but that takes work on our part and work with manufacturers to build into their firmware the ability to look at the different IP's for captioning information, And of course the studios and those making the content have to include it and be on board with that. We can support up to 16 channels right now so theoretically you could have your VI track or even information for D-Box seats encoded.

We have a few others surprises in the pipe-line too!

[David Ferguson]

It has been 33 years since the theatrical DTS format first debuted, and the tech behind the format is at least a year or more older. I'm foggy on when various kinds of patents in the US expire. It would seem like any utility or design patents specifically related to theatrical DTS might be ready to expire (if they haven't expired already). Of course, I don't know if the theatrical DTS format licensed other patents that may have possibly been renewed over the years. I don't know if copyright law can be applied to the proprietary time code. At any rate, that stuff can't stay protected forever.

I think it would be best for anyone involved with current film print production if the DTS time code was made an "open source" thing. That would allow various companies to expand the audio capabilities of 35mm and 70mm film prints.

Any patents will have expired, yes. All the DTS code and implementations will still be under copyright of whomever owns that today. And the trademarks will probably still be owned by someone, unless they have let that lapse (but I can't imagine that would happen).

But - assuming you do clean room reverse engineering - anyone can publish a spec or new implementation of the DTS timecode, audio formats, or encoder/decoder. You can't use their trademarks, but there's no issue with doing that.

I don't see a need for anyone at DTS/Datasat/ATI/Inventure, and now BLS to make DTS open source. The timecode spec is published, the source code for the audio format is published, I have mostly published the CSS subtitle spec, and I have worked out but not yet published the encrypted timecode format... there's really not much more that could be published!

The situation also make me think about the possibility of creating a universal film reader that could not only see DTS time code, but also scan Dolby Digital data and even SDDS data. As various patents and what not expire you could end up with a film reader and processor that could handle any vintage digital audio film format.

Sondor made a soundhead that support SR, SR•D and DTS, but there's never been one that did more than that. But maybe, maybe some day. It's certainly what a couple of people any myself want to do...

We have not implemented CSS or closed captions yet. Both are things we want to do and are pretty easy compared to everything else involved (he says now...) but out priority was getting absolutely stable and bullet proof audio playback no matter how many random bits of time code you spliced into a reel or did other abusive things to try and break it. Our plan is to continually release software updates and as I said we want to be able to support captioning devices as well as CSS style captions but that takes work on our part and work with manufacturers to build into their firmware the ability to look at the different IP's for captioning information, And of course the studios and those making the content have to include it and be on board with that. We can support up to 16 channels right now so theoretically you could have your VI track or even information for D-Box seats encoded.

We have a few others surprises in the pipe-line too!

Looking forward to hearing more - the TS-1 is the most exciting film development in a long time, and it's great that investment is going into these "obsolete" technologies. I assume you/Thomas has seen my write up on CSS and agree - it's not hard, but does just take a bit of time to implement.

[Chris Haller]

Happy to report that Victor and the crew running The Odyssey have kept the print at Cineplex Varsity in great shape after a month of shows. There was a decent crowd for 1pm on a Tuesday this late into the run.

Having seen this digitally and in imax 70mm twice at different venues, I was surprised by how dark this print was - it could be the hot spotting from the silver screen in that particular theater, which was very evident today against the dark imagery. Perhaps their lamp has just been through the wringer and needs to be changed. Anyone else find their 70mm print to be this way? I know Disclosure Day and Oppenheimer did not look this dim on that particular screen.

[Marcel Birgelen]

I came across this video about the Rigoletto in Stockholm running The Odyssey in 70mm in changeover on two DP70s.

What struck me was their reel shelving system: neat! Now, who else does have such a nice reel shelving system like they do? And if so, can it handle 70mm reels too?